Draft of a Letter to HiRezKelly Regarding ADCs and Snowballing, Up for Editing

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Right here is a draft of a letter I plan to send to HiRezKelly, and whether or not you guys approve affects whether or not I can say "this is from Smitefire."

Quoted:

I mainly play Artemis, and I have played a lot of hunters. I've snowballed, and I've been on the receiving end of snowballing. I'll try to give some insight into the problem. I apologize if I repeat anything you have heard before. Also, this might be a long read, and this problem can't be summed up easily.

The part of the problem is the lack of counterplay, a direct consequence of the amount of CC in Smite's ADCs in general, as well as a LOT of other factors. CC sets up damage, and a lot of CC sets up a lot of damage.

Let me use an example. I am Artemis, and I gain a kill on the enemy ADC. I kill him, gaining gold and XP. I clear the minion wave, getting even more gold and XP. I also recall, getting an item or two. And the next time I see the enemy ADC, I can afford to play more aggressively, because the enemy knows I have already won one damage trade, and I can win another.

This is fine. This is a natural consequence of dying to the enemy ADC. The below paragraph is not fine.

I can force damage trades. Instead of relying on a support, I can use my Calydonian Boar to attack him. He can fight, which he will lose, or he can flee, giving me free damage, even a free kill. Either way, I get even more lane advantage, putting me even further ahead.

What can he do? Beads and/or Aegis? He loses gold to buy them, and if used, he loses more lane presence due to him burning his primary defense. If he tries to play defensively, he will be pushed back to his tower, losing more gold and experience. He has given me lane dominance, and as long as I don't make any mistakes, I will keep lane dominance, and the gap will continue to widen. This doesn't change no matter what ADC I pick. ALL of them have enough CC to keep doing this.

About the tower: Pushing is simply too efficient of an option. There is never an incentive to NOT push, at least regarding the first tower. You potentially gain the opportunity to roam, gain farm for your entire team, and the only risk is from an incoming gank from a jungler, but the jungler is a lot easier to counter than a snowballing ADC**.
What about calling a gank? Asking for help? You can do that, but relying on other players for counterplay is typically a bad idea, because I could counter that by also asking for assistance. It would be a cyclical argument.

In short, there is almost nothing the enemy can do to prevent me from getting more ahead.

Ideally, this shouldn't happen. There should be alternative options. But how can you dodge when you are stunned or rooted or slowed? How can you counter being bodyblocked (Disperse, Impale on the Lane's Sides, Shifting Sands into a triangular box and then Desert Fury)? Being outrunned? Being hit by a global ultimate? (I know, with a support, but the laning phase is too short to make much of a difference. I'll explain later.)

This problem can be approached from multiple angles.

- You can reduce the amount of benefits from a kill, but that affects ALL gods, not just ADCs, and I don't think this is what you want.

- You can reduce or tweak the amount of CC of all ADCs in general, giving more counterplay options and making it more difficult for ADCs to set up their own kills after getting ahead. This is obviously time-consuming, strenuous, and headache-inducing, but I believe this is the best option.

- You can increase counterplay potential by having some defensive items that you can build. Just as a mid mage would build Breastplate of Valor with a jungling Fenrir, a few VIABLE defensive items for an ADC would be tremendously useful. (Witch Stone sacrifices too much damage, and Focused Void Blade is too expensive. Magi's Blessing works great, but only late game, in teamfights.)
- You can make pushing less beneficial. Currently, pushing has little downsides compared to the upsides, so you can make the farm loss of being pushed weaker, make pushing more dangerous, perhaps by increasing the length of the lanes, or something like that.
- You can extend the laning phase. This is a bit complex.

Why the Laning Phase is Short: Roaming is too strong, so strong that it has become the meta, partly due to the existance of Midas Boots (Makes it more efficient to roam and give even more farm to your ADC), the Mid Camps and their Importance (So important, you have to secure them ASAP), and due to the ease of roaming (small map). In other words, supports must roam as soon as possible - sometimes even before reaching level 5, or gaining Midas Boots. After getting Midas Boots, supports often spend more time roaming then they do in lane, or even leave the lane to the ADC entirely.

Why This is a Bad Thing: This is bad because A. It forces hunters to be self-sufficient early, which contradicts the very purpose of an ADC and is part of the reason why early game gods like Thanatos are so strong right now, and B. Due to the lack of 2v2 dynamics in the lane, snowballing ADCs can more easily continue to snowball with little interference, and C. The Lanes become stagnant due to the lack of players. In other words, 'Duo' Lane becomes Solo lane 2.0.

I don't want to chain the ADC to the support, but I don't think roaming should be so strong that it becomes the best and only option available.

How to Change It?: Well, the main problem is that roaming is too bloody efficient. Making the map bigger would certainly work, although it is a little drastic, removing the mid harpies would reduce part of the pressure forcing supports to roam, and removing OR weakening Midas Boots would certainly help keep supports in lane. I'm out of ideas.

Thank you for taking the time to read this overly long post that would be shorter if written by someone smarter. I hope these suggestions have helped in some way.

Subzero008

**Jungling in Smite is so insanely frantic, due to the ridiculous importance of the mid camps. One thing that annoys me to no end is that when I am playing a hunter, I can look at the map, and when I see that the mid camps have respawned, I can relax, since most junglers would rush to them ASAP, rather thank risking a failed gank and losing them. I hate those mid camps, it's like being chained to a machine that yanks on your collar every two minutes.

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I don't have any changes to it, personally. Although I'd remove the "the" in "The part of the problem..." in the second paragraph.

But I haven't been a big contributor to these forms of discussions, so I'd wait on a few other comments.

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Brilliant i think it require 2-3 reads, green signal from me..send it..

Edit: just add ans. to the other issue of solo lane bruisers. I think "we are going through a discussion on smitefire" or something u feel like.

EDIT: I think points B and C in "Why This is a Bad Thing" are not clear enough can edit that.

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I feel like this is a bad idea. Now that you posted this here, more people might think that they can post QQs about the gods they "Think" needs fixing. Especially those who are "Very" new to the game (We do know a LOT of immature ragers play this). Thinking that now Kelly is like their "Spokes" person for anyone playing the game.

At least arka posted his in his blog so not many people would see that. But now this is here. So more spam mail for Kelly.

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wrote:

I disagree with MD here..

EDIT: I think this is the most transparent way otherwise you might say that we send to Kelly whatever we want and there is no feedback been taken from smitefire. The quality of arguments made in the letter is of the highest order and more on the dynamics and psychology of the game and fundamental to the issues Hi-Rez is interested in. If newbies read this they will perhaps learn a lot about the game even more than the guides.

Also, people will always be there to place counter arguments but this must not stop things from happening.

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I haven't had the time to read it thoroughly, but a Ctrl+F search finds no mentions of the words 'safe' or 'escape'. I maintain the biggest issue with snowballing results from not being able to die - 5 hunters have straight up escapes, 2 have high speed boosts. It's impossible to kill a smart duo lane. This leads any advantage into a guaranteed stronghold, which manifests itself in lane and continues to accrue more and more small advantages, thus, the snowball.

I think this should be addressed. Junglers do a TON of damage, but they can only do so much when it's impossible to get ahold of anyone.

I suggest minor tweaks to hunters as a whole. They're too safe.

-Demolibium

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TT & Arka, I edited it to address your points. I didn't put anything mention bruisers, because honestly, this letter is way too big as is.

@ Raventhor, I agree that hunters as a whole gave too much survivability, but I don't think it's a factor in snowballing. I mean, since both you and the enemy hunter have escapes, it doesn't really seem to matter. After all, since you snowballed on him, so the escape didn't help him much, right? In addition, any change to the general survivability of all ADCs will affect both the snowballer and the snowbalEE. But since I'm posting this to represent the community, and I understand your point, I'll put it in. (New section is in white)

@MadDanny, see this constructive criticism is exactly why I post this, although you have a point about random people whining to HiRez about stuff. But isn't that already present with Reddit?

Quoted:

I mainly play Artemis, and I have played a lot of hunters. I've snowballed, and I've been on the receiving end of snowballing. I'll try to give some insight into the problem. I apologize if I repeat anything you have heard before. Also, this might be a long read, and this problem can't be summed up easily.

Part of the problem is the lack of counterplay, a direct consequence of the amount of CC in Smite's ADCs in general, as well as a LOT of other factors. CC sets up damage, and a lot of CC sets up a lot of damage.

Let me use an example. I am Artemis, and I gain a kill on the enemy ADC. I kill him, gaining gold and XP. I clear the minion wave, getting even more gold and XP. I also recall, getting an item or two. And the next time I see the enemy ADC, I can afford to play more aggressively, because the enemy knows I have already won one damage trade, and I can win another.

This is fine. This is a natural consequence of dying to the enemy ADC. The below paragraph is not fine.

I can force damage trades. Instead of relying on a support, I can use my Calydonian Boar to attack him. He can fight, which he will lose, or he can flee, giving me free damage, even a free kill. Either way, I get even more lane advantage, putting me even further ahead.

What can he do? Beads and/or Aegis? He loses gold to buy them, and if used, he loses more lane presence due to him burning his primary defense. If he tries to play defensively, he will be pushed back to his tower, losing more gold and experience. He has given me lane dominance, and as long as I don't make any mistakes, I will keep lane dominance, and the gap will continue to widen. This doesn't change no matter what ADC I pick. ALL of them have enough CC to keep doing this.

A factor in this is the general escapability in all ADCs. Five have straight-out escapes, and two have high speed boosts. While their escapes are not unfailable, it makes them rather difficult to kill if they play safe, especially without a support in the lane.

About the tower: Pushing is simply too efficient of an option. There is never an incentive to NOT push, at least regarding the first tower. You potentially gain the opportunity to roam, gain farm for your entire team, and the only risk is from an incoming gank from a jungler, but the jungler is a lot easier to counter than a snowballing ADC**.
What about calling a gank? Asking for help? You can do that, but relying on other players for counterplay is typically a bad idea, because I could counter that by also asking for assistance. It would be a cyclical argument.

In short, there is almost nothing the enemy can do to prevent me from getting more ahead.

Ideally, this shouldn't happen. There should be alternative options. But how can you dodge when you are stunned or rooted or slowed? How can you counter being bodyblocked (Disperse, Impale on the Lane's Sides, Shifting Sands into a triangular box and then Desert Fury)? Being outrunned? Being hit by a global ultimate? (I know, with a support, but the laning phase is too short to make much of a difference. I'll explain later.)

This problem can be approached from multiple angles.

- You can reduce the amount of benefits from a kill, but that affects ALL gods, not just ADCs, and I don't think this is what you want.

- You can reduce or tweak the amount of CC of all ADCs in general, giving more counterplay options and making it more difficult for ADCs to set up their own kills after getting ahead. This is obviously time-consuming, strenuous, and headache-inducing, but I believe this is the best option.

- You can increase counterplay potential by having some defensive items that you can build. Just as a mid mage would build Breastplate of Valor with a jungling Fenrir, a few VIABLE defensive items for an ADC would be tremendously useful. (Witch Stone sacrifices too much damage, and Focused Void Blade is too expensive. Magi's Blessing works great, but only late game, in teamfights.)
- You can make pushing less beneficial. Currently, pushing has little downsides compared to the upsides, so you can make the farm loss of being pushed weaker, make pushing more dangerous, perhaps by increasing the length of the lanes, or something like that.
- You can extend the laning phase. This is a bit complex.

Why the Laning Phase is Short: Roaming is too strong, so strong that it has become the meta, partly due to the existance of Midas Boots (Makes it more efficient to roam and give even more farm to your ADC), the Mid Camps and their Importance (So important, you have to secure them ASAP), and due to the ease of roaming (small map). In other words, supports must roam as soon as possible - sometimes even before reaching level 5, or gaining Midas Boots. After getting Midas Boots, supports often spend more time roaming then they do in lane, or even leave the lane to the ADC entirely.

Why This is a Bad Thing: This is bad because A. It forces hunters to be self-sufficient early, which contradicts the very purpose of an ADC and is part of the reason why early game gods like Thanatos are so strong right now, and B. Due to the lack of player variables in the lane, snowballing ADCs can more easily continue to snowball with little interference (it is far more difficult to "outplay" someone in a one-v-one fight), and C. The Lanes become stagnant due to the lack of players. In other words, 'Duo' Lane becomes Solo lane 2.0, where both sides are focused on pushing and very little action occurs.

I don't want to chain the ADC to the support, but I don't think roaming should be so strong that it becomes the best and only option available.

How to Change It?: Well, the main problem is that roaming is too bloody efficient. Making the map bigger would certainly work, although it is a little drastic, removing the mid harpies would reduce part of the pressure forcing supports to roam, and removing OR weakening Midas Boots would certainly help keep supports in lane. I'm out of ideas.

Thank you for taking the time to read this overly long post that would be shorter if written by someone smarter. I hope these suggestions have helped in some way.

Subzero008

**Jungling in Smite is so insanely frantic, due to the ridiculous importance of the mid camps. One thing that annoys me to no end is that when I am playing a hunter, I can look at the map, and when I see that the mid camps have respawned, I can relax, since most junglers would rush to them ASAP, rather thank risking a failed gank and losing them. I hate those mid camps, it's like being chained to a machine that yanks on your collar every two minutes.

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Yeah, I mentioned some of my theories in the blog post, which led to pinning the abundancy of mobility and escapes as the reason for snowbally hunters.

I also just made a post there suggesting a Sprint nerf, something that the community has undoubtedly been asking for already from what I've been glimpsing on SMITE Reddit.

EDIT: As for warriors... well, I think that if pushing becomes less of a dominant lane strategy, we can expect warriors to recover from the big nerf they took from the recent change. So at the moment, we'll just have to wait and see if things can get better for them or not.

Waiting on a good new MOBA, please.

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I disagree that escapes aren't a reason for snowballing, Sub. Who knows, maybe you got a kill off a failed gank, or you managed to accidently kill a support who was out of position. And it's easier to punish someone who's snowballing if they don't have escapes. A person who is being snowballed against can simply farm under tower if they have no escapes, but it provides too much incentive for the person who's ahead to keep pushing when they simply won't die.

If you can't escape, your snowballing can be shutdown. I just don't like that you can't be punished in any way if the person who's ahead plays smart. Sure, playing smart should get you far, but you shouldn't be invincible.

-Demolibium

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I just hope that people (That act like 10 year olds) don't think that they have a "Valid" reason to complain and start spamming their inbox.

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Draft of a Letter to HiRezKelly Regarding ADCs and Snowballing, Up for Editing

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