Loki Deals Too Much Damage :: Page 8

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Raventhor, we have to face facts. Not everyone is going to be in position all the time during a solo queue or any match for that position. Everyone gets out of position sometime and that's a sad fact. Loki's stealth allows him to get through people being in even remotely good position. The squishy targets stay at the back and every assassin has a tool that lets them get to the back relatively safely. The problem with loki's is, it's undetectable unless he's in the immediate vicinity when he goes into stealth. He's undetectable by wards, and within an instant can be on you and 100-0 you with no problems at all. That's where all the problem is arising, you have no time to counter him within that time. You can get beads, you can get aegis, but you're using active slots and those have cd's that are longer than a full cdr (which is pretty much his only kit) loki. Like others have said, the damage numbers between Loki and an ADC are pretty much the same. Here's the thing though, most ADC's wont be 100-0'ing you before you know it. Loki does that in an instant, pops his stealth, get out, rinse, repeat. And that's where my problem with him arises. I've seen how loki works and his mechanics imo is pretty broken. I understand that he's bursty and needs to have that damage potential but it's ridiculous that it carries through most stages of the game. Loki doesn't really have a teamfight. All the other assassins apart from maybe thanatos do. All the other assassins don't have the presence Loki has though. Loki can make a team fight off of initiating and 100-0ing a squishy. Loki can get out pretty safely once he gets in (a common case in casuals and even arena) and not to mention as many have seen before, if you're getting away and he gets that decoy off to bodyblock you, you're dead. Smite made Loki hard to particularly focus. You can't focus someone who can go invisible and get out before you even know it. And to be frank, it's not practical for a whole team to be keeping their eyes out for one loki just make sure he doesn't get to their squishies which, as I've said, his kit allows him to get in there easy. My problem with Loki is this. He has high damage, and he's relatively untouchable. The only way to get through stealth is dots. But dots aren't present on every god and not all dots are all that great. Not to mention if Loki gets dotted, he can just get out quick and be right back on you from a different approach. Don't get me wrong, Loki's a rewarding god, and his burst is his "niche" but his burst is kind of ridiculous. He's like a melee He Bo in his own regard. Loki's not a hard god to master. At least, from what I've seen of him he doesn't have anything that's remotely difficult about him to get his damage off. His ult has a stun, preventing any cc and if you somehow manage to beads it early, you're not skillful, you're lucky. And even then he'll be right back before your beads are off cd. I wouldn't have a problem with him if he wasn't pretty average in difficulty. Here you have gods like Janus, high burst but his damage isn't guaranteed damage. If you hit his ult, best feeling in the world. Hell, even his two has somewhat the same value (although it has been made easier to hit it). People are pretty much fine with him, he's squishy AND he has good teamfight potential. Why not give Loki the same treatment. Make his damage not so guaranteed for the little bit of skill it takes to land his ult and the successive abilities soon after. I mean come on, his ult has a radius, which is fair but considering the game is skill shot oriented, any player that's average at skill shots will be hitting them on a regular basis. And any competent smite player will be hitting their skill shots. Going back to my Janus example, think of when he first came out. He had to WORK just to clear his wave and he had to put even more work into his ult. Of course, that's not really the case now, but it still stands, his damage can not be guaranteed. He's no Ao Kuang where you just put down a tornado and do damage or hit a squall and then follow up with a tornado and bam, you've got damage on them but the point is there. Make Loki REALLY have to work for his damage, not just do things that are expected of smite players on a general. If you don't make him work for the damage, then nerf it and give him something else. Give him a team fight. Give him a temporary stealth on his allies. Most assassins don't 100-0 people. Fenrir doesn't, Arachne doesn't, Merc, Bastet, Baka whoever. Assassins aren't there to be overpowered damage, they are there to help the team.

This was a pain...

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I have to say that I agree with dacoqrs in that he does not need a nerf (especially not to his damage IMO).

As he says, if Loki gets fed someone made mistakes, didn't ward, out of position, backing like a ****ing ****** etc etc. And as sub says; "It. Is. Solo. Queue." (I loled ^-^) But let's be serious, just because you play solo queue does make you play bad? Yes some ppl are bad at the game, give them advice. If your dashes to clear nonstop in middle lane against jungle tell him to stop that ****ing suicide mission.

All that stuff about CC countering him is true, but CC counters everyone so IMO not a "true" counter. Although it affects him harder than a lot of other gods.

Good positioning (buddy system, never walk alone), never chase or splitpush (unless you are 100% safe) , just pure health (protection is pretty useless against the normal Loki build, so breastplate is not that useful).

When Loki gets fed he is very dangerous for any carry, and if you **** up you die. But that's how the game is, it is not just Loki.

And Loki will always just have burst damage, survive that and you are in a really good spot even if he is fed.

And his is not that "pres 4 to win". It is probably about 40% of his burst, the rest is the vanishedbackstabaimedstrikehydrasbasicattack (which ofc is set up by the assassinate). But it can be aegised, and then you live. For a while at least.

Nerfing would make him pretty bad I fear, as Sub said you can already see the damage numbers (just set combat numbers

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and the dot thingy is gg). Phasing in and out could work, kind of like fog when you AA (only shorter reveal).

How I see it:

Loki jungle is easy to keep from getting fed as long as your team uses common sense. Unless you give him free kills by pushing to hard, going on your own etc. there just isn't enough farm for him to get fed.

Loki solo on the other hand has to be ganked consistently for you to be able to keep him down. But how do you kill someone with a stealth and a TP? This IMO is the only place where he is a problem. Because he can farm so easily with the decoy even without leaving the tower it is really difficult to shut him down. Basically you need him to burn his on someone then you have <90 sec (depending on how much CDR he got) to kill him. And if he for example killed your solo lane, that't not a easy task. And the biggest problem I have with him is his insane split push.

My idea would be that the decoy have to be cast on a target and minions are taunted towards that target. That way he can still clear, but he can't backdoor a tower/phoenix as easily as he can now. Not able to target gods though (at least not before maxed) that lvl 1 would be so broken.

And if all we are looking at is nerfing snowballed lategame, why are we talking about when , , , , osaris and ****ing still exist :P
It is the effort it takes to get snowballed that needs to be looked at (and I think that was the original topic, but in the later pages it is floating more over to nerf the snowball. Which I think is ridicules, as someone said in the end everyone snowballs. It is just the time it takes to get there that can be problematic).

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There's a lot of certain deities to counter , nuff said.

For example (, , and probably a hard CC like 's ) almost all assassins can die fast when CCed, they have insane burst damage but low health.

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These arguments are going in circles.

Also I refuse to read whatever that guy said. I'm just not going to deal with it; I don't have the mental fortitude.

I'd defend myself from before but it would simply just be going in circles in the argument and no one is trying to compromise.

Side A thinks he's broken
Side B says how counterable he is
Side A says no that counter doesn't exist
Side B says yes it does
and there's no agreement.

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Firstly, wow dude, BME you wrote that on your phone?! If I do that you wouldn't be able to read it. Typing + autocorrect= destruction.

Secondly: Guys, do you even play Loki? He needs all of his 3 damaging skills to kill a squishy. Then all of those skills (including Vanish....) are on CD. Withiou Vanish or Assassinate he doesn't have an escape, leaving him to be easily killed.

I wish I was on a computer, since I disagree so much with so many of you..... Now I don't want to torture myself any more so I'm gonna stop typing on this small ****phone.

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wrote:

Also I refuse to read whatever that guy said. I'm just not going to deal with it; I don't have the mental fortitude.

haha, think I lost some brain cells trying to read it. Had to give up after like two sentences because I got a nose bleed.

wrote:

Firstly, wow dude, BME you wrote that on your phone?!

Was at work, and we had soooo much to do.. Kappa

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This thread is a testament to why needs to be reworked.

Seriously, I have never seen something in a game been called broken, OP, needs a nerf and balanced, UP, needs a buff by so different people on so many different occasions as .

Like RavenThor said: This thread is going nowhere. I just see people repeating the same arguments and the rest repeating the same counter arguments.

I will stand by the fact that I find him OP no matter what argument you throw at me, but I can still see why people call him UP. It just depends on what way you look at him and if you are the on playing as him or against him. (I would bet money on that most people that don't think he is OP main him or at least play him often)

I really wish Hi-rez should just give up and go back to square one with him, maybe give him a gap closer and tie his stealth to his ultimate.

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wrote:

No, that is not how it should work. A good Loki is awful against a good team but is excellent against a bad one by how quickly he snowballs. Heck, a bad Loki is good against a bad team, because of how uncounterable his damage is - it depends on team cohesion more than individual skill, because in the case of individuals, Loki is practically uncounterable. (His niche in Joust, for example).

A god who is equally useful regardless of skill is not balanced. In any way.

A bad Loki ends up getting records like 13-13, 7-7, 6-8, etc.

Is 13-13 a "good" preformance?

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wrote:

A bad Loki ends up getting records like 13-13, 7-7, 6-8, etc.

Is 13-13 a "good" preformance?

I'll reword my statement.

Sink hours and hours into mastering Loki, and you'll still be worthless once you start playing against players who know what they are doing.

Spend a match or two playing him, and you'll be pubstomping with the rest of them.

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I think I have a headache.

Um, we've already established how Loki is too easily countered by competent teams.

We've also established that it is easy for Loki to get fed in solo queue.

We've pointed out that Loki's snowballing problems are not unique to him.

Okay. Okay.

Statement: Loki's too difficult to counter when fed. I'm not saying that counterplay doesn't exist. And we all disagree on what is an effective counter or not, but that's not the point. I think we all can agree that a fed Loki is difficult to counter, especially in the solo queue enviroment.

Statement: I think Loki needs a SPECIFIC counter. Not "CC and focus," those apply to all assassins, and the assassins themselves can take countermeasures such as beads, or by being in a coordinated team themselves.

Statement: I propose adding stealth-revealing wards into the game, making it easier to counter him in solo queue, where one can simply spend 100+ gold on a ward instead of relying on a potentially awful team.

Statement: I propose altering Loki's kit to reduce him reliance on stealth as a countermeasure to the above statement.

Statement: Whatever would give him reduced reliance on stealth would hopefully increase his impact on teamfights. However, I suggest that such an increase be accompanied by a reduction in his damage, balancing him out. Overall, this would be a buff to his competitive viability without overtly buffing him.

Statement: Snowballing problems belong in a separate discussion.

Question: Is this acceptable?

(I am just so tired that I can't think straight right now so I'm organizing my thing like this instead of vomiting my word-brain into my sentence-thoughts.)

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Loki Deals Too Much Damage

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