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wrote:

Typically wrong actually... you are slowed but if you were able to enter the wall you can typically push through it. It just takes longer. Do not stop pushing forward when you get slowed and you'll usually go through it even if HEAVILY slowed. The important thing is entering the wall immediately after it is put up. As long as that happens it really doesn't matter how slow you are.

If its not a huge difference then you won't mind changing it back to 2.5.

The only reason to disagree is if you actually do think its a big difference and were telling me an "untruth".

In my opinion, CC is geometically useful based on the duration. That is to say, a 1 second stun is more then twice as useful as a .5 second stun. A 2 second stun is more then twice as useful as a 1 second stun. Etc. It is not a linear function.

As such, a .3 second difference and be critical especially since for ymir his stun sets up all his other damage. Ymir really only has his stun. That's it. And f'ing him on his stun f's him.

What's more, there is so much CC immunity in this game now that ymir is practically useless against any but complete ***hats. Baka is immune in is ult. Anhur is immune in his ult. Xbal is immune every time he dashes. There's so much that its really ruined the god.

The game is really profoundly badly balanced and it comes clear with issues like this... really, with every patch the game's balance seems to get worse. The balance of about november of last year was pretty decent. Prior to stats and focus. After that it was all down hill and quickly.

Nonsense. Lots of other gods have more damaging abilities that trigger more quickly and often have powerful CC components.

Sobek's ult for example does nearly as much damage and grants sobek mobility while he does it allowing him to have an additional escape ability.

Ymir really has no escapes which means he has to commit to everything. That would be fine if the armor were uncapped and his stun were unnerfed. Ymir was a boss. He'd go into a nasty situation, eat the focus of a whole team, and survive it.

Now though? Armor has been nerfed. Armor pen has been buffed. His CC has been nerfed. And CC immunity has been buffed.

Used to be a big fan of ymir. But he's trash now.

As for your 1st point, don't put the wall on top of someone. Easy enough to manage.
As for your 2nd point, no, there's no reason to change it because it's annoying to do. We have no 'problem' with changing it back - it's barely a difference - by why fix something that isn't broken? And Geometically? I think you mean Exponentially. There is such a thing as a Geometric function but it's not exactly what you'd be using here.

Ymir is in no way bad because of how people become immune. If any of these gods (such as Anhur) were not CC immune during their ult, they would be incredibly bad. That's why Bakasura was so, so, so weak until the buff.

Ymir is still a ridiculously good tank/support, who is picked in almost every game. Omega is known for playing nothing but Ymir every single chance he gets - he loves the god and finds him absolutely broken in the right hands, because his wall placement wins teamfights. Just be good and don't put it through someone so they can leave it.

As for your 3rd point, Sobek's does NOWHERE NEAR the same damage. We're talking 1200+200% MP on Ymir versus 950+80%. That is a 250 base number, 120% scaling difference. And Ymir's ult slows, whereas Sobek's does not. I'd much rather use Ymir's ult - it has a CC factor into it, and the combination with, for example, a Ne Zha who dashes into someone, and drops them straight into an ymir ult, is ridiculous.

Finally, Ymir has several escapes. You stun. You place a wall, while you're running, right in front of you, so you run through it and they can't. You're a *tank* who survives through damage. You have a slow. Etc. I don't know what more you need, it's very very hard to kill an ymir unless you run into a fight braindead.

TL;DR, all your points can easily be refuted and Ymir's ult is nowhere close to the same as Sobek's. He can escape, survive, CC, etc. Ymir is a top pick and will be for all time.

If you truly, however, don't believe that he's balanced compared to new gods, read this.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_creep

-Demolibium

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Eminent (158)
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wrote:

As for your 1st point, don't put the wall on top of someone. Easy enough to manage.

You just lowered the effective range of the ability.

Increase the range by 20 percent and that's fair. Otherwise, set it back. This is effectively a nerf on Ymir's high level play and a buff on his low level play.

The walk through walls trick is only really needed for bad players. But for higher level players it hurts them more because it means ymir's reach is reduced. That's unfair given his lack of a leap and the fact that the wall does nothing but EXIST as a wall.

Ymir deserves a useful wall and its not really useful for anything besides running away which is garbage.

Quoted:

We have no 'problem' with changing it back

Good, then change it back.

End of discussion.

Quoted:

Ymir is in no way bad because of how people become immune. If any of these gods (such as Anhur) were not CC immune during their ult, they would be incredibly bad. That's why Bakasura was so, so, so weak until the buff.

Wrong. Anhur was very strong before that change. Claiming he would be UP without the immunity is ignorant. No offense, but that point is indefensible.

Anyone even moderately familiar with anhur knows he doesn't need that immunity and was very strong and competitive without it.

Quoted:

As for your 3rd point, Sobek's does NOWHERE NEAR the same damage. We're talking 1200+200% MP on Ymir versus 950+80%.

Scaling is irrelevant since neither god really builds magic power.

Furthermore, sobek lands his ult with great frequency where as ymir's ult is extremely circomstancial. Given the disparity in hit chance, it would be fair to drastically increase ymir's damage on that ult.

Would that one shot people more often? Yes. But its so hard to land that it really should unless you want to offer something else.

For example, damage reduction while ulting would be fair on that ult.

Quoted:

That is a 250 base number, 120% scaling difference. And Ymir's ult slows, whereas Sobek's does not. I'd much rather use Ymir's ult - it has a CC factor into it, and the combination with, for example, a Ne Zha who dashes into someone, and drops them straight into an ymir ult, is ridiculous.

Ne zah is a silly comparison because she does all her damage with auto attacks and the ring toss. And yeah, its a chick. Change the hairstyle and voice if you want to claim otherwise.

Quoted:

Finally, Ymir has several escapes. You stun.

By that logic, anubis has an escape.

No one considers stuns to be escapes.

Quoted:

You place a wall, while you're running,

Only useful to bad players. Good players can turn around fast, throw up a wall, and then turn around again.

This effectively nerfed ymir's high level game.

Quoted:

right in front of you, so you run through it and they can't.

Not true, if they're right behind you they can walk through it too.

Quoted:

You're a *tank* who survives through damage.

Ymir is one of hte lowest damage gods in the game. He survives by CC and tanking not damage.

Quoted:

You have a slow. Etc. I don't know what more you need,

I need halfwits to stop changing balanced gods and ruining them.

That's what I need. It won't happen but it would sure be nice.

Quoted:

it's very very hard to kill an ymir unless you run into a fight braindead.

Not true. You can have physical power over 500 and physical armor caps at 325 plus there is armor reduction and penetration which further nerfs the ability of a tank to actually tank.

Uncap armor and tone down the armor pen and it would go a long way to fixing the situation.

As it is, a high armor pen build will cut through a high armor build like it isn't even there which isn't fair because it means damage gods can counter tanks but tanks can't counter damage gods.

Remarkable (5)
Posts: 63

Ok, let me just, take a minute here. The wall does not need 20% more range, it's range is already stupidly high.

No, we won't change it back, 'end of discussion', because you ignored everything I said. There's no reason to.

Everyone has argued AGAINST anhur losing immunity because they feel it would break him. If you've seen the entire thread post from a week ago, you'd know this. There are many people exceptionally familiar with him that agree. And you used a singular god to argue against my point, when I have explicitly shown Bakasura was **** without his immunity. You CC him during his ult, and he's done. He's useless in teamfights. That's why it's needed.

Scaling is not irrelevant, both gods build a few MP items, such as , , , (if wanted), etc. And you ignored the fact that Ymir's base damage is higher.

A stun is 100% an escape. If they can't chase you, you escaped. If you truly believe that stunning someone for 2.25 seconds doesn't help you get away at all, that's flawed thinking.

Good players don't *need* to turn around fast and place a wall, because they can do it while running on top of them to just run to the other side.

If they're right behind you, freeze them, or place the wall slightly ahead of you. It's really not hard.

I didn't say Ymir survives by doing damage, I said he survives through damage. He survives despite being damage. I don't know how to make that clear. Oh, and thank you for agreeing that he survives through CC and tanking - you agreed that his CC helps him survive. So his stun DOES help! Good to know!

And if the enemy is building full armor pen, that would still mean they have to focus you over your team. GG, you did your job as a tank. If they're focusing your team they won't do nearly as much because they focused on Armor Pen over Physical Power. Even so, your CC on Ymir, combined with the still ridiculous amount of armor (Titans Bane and Executioner combined is only around half your armor) and you CAN go past the armor cap - it just doesn't count until it's reduced. Say you have 400 Physical Defense - it only counts 325 of that. If they reduce your armor by 75, you will still have 325 Physical Defense.

In any case, this isn't a thread based on , it's a thread based on CC. I'd like to have it back on topic and stop arguing about this. Ymir always has been and still is balanced, as I've said several, SEVERAL pros play him very often, including Omega and Allied, just to name a couple. I think he's balanced, and he has one of the longest non-ult stuns in the game, if not thee longest.

I'm personally pretty much done with the topic - I've listed my order of the power of CC and if anyone wants to converse about that, I'd be glad to say why I ordered it as such past my brief explanations.

Sorry for the rant, everyone.

-Demolibium

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wrote:

Ok, let me just, take a minute here. The wall does not need 20% more range, it's range is already stupidly high.

the range is the same as most leaps which is the point. Only because you can walk through it the wall is actually shorter range then most leaps.

So gg on that point.

Quoted:

No, we won't change it back, 'end of discussion', because you ignored everything I said. There's no reason to.

True. Hirez is pretty garbage at balance and are amazing about not fixing little bugs that persist for ages and then giving laughably false reasons for not doing so.

So yeah... you're right... hirez is terrible at balance.

Quoted:

Everyone has argued AGAINST anhur losing immunity because they feel it would break him.

Truth isn't a democracy.

He was very strong before being given that. Were he breakable by losing CC immunity then he wouldn't have been so strong.

So... you're wrong.

Quoted:

Scaling is not irrelevant, both gods build a few MP items, such as , , , (if wanted), etc. And you ignored the fact that Ymir's base damage is higher.

I'm afraid it is, on heavy tanks the base damage tends to be all that matters.

Now if you gave ymir 500 percent scaling that might be something.

And before you tell me that is too high scaling, that's nearly what anubis has on his ult. So its not unreasonable.

Because you probably aren't aware of anubis' scaling:

Quoted:

Death Gaze (Skill Key 4 - Ultimate)

Anubis focuses all of his energy into a piercing gaze, doing damage to all enemies in the path, every 0.3 seconds for 3 seconds.

Ability: Line

Affects: Enemy

Damage Type: Magical

Damage per Tick: 70/85/100/115/130 (+45% of your magical power)

Or (130 + .45*MP)*(3/.3)

That is 450 percent scaling. I think that's about as high as it gets.

In any case, given that ymir rarely has much MP to speak of the scaling isn't really relevant. Furthermore, ymir's ult rarely lands and sobek's lands all the time. Look at end game damage statistics and you'll see that ymir has always ranked towards the bottom of the damage scale. Even when he had a 3 second stun his end game cumulative damage was lower then everyone else.

Its a fact. And facts don't care what your opinion is... when your opinion contradicts a fact... your opinion is wrong.

Quoted:

A stun is 100% an escape. If they can't chase you, you escaped. If you truly believe that stunning someone for 2.25 seconds doesn't help you get away at all, that's flawed thinking.

Never been considered so... and if you want to say that then anhur has 4 escapes.

I mean, if we really went by that basis there would be so many gods that would need a nerf because by your estimation they have too many escapes.

Does anhur deserve 4 escapes?

Yes or no?

Quoted:

Good players don't *need* to turn around fast and place a wall, because they can do it while running on top of them to just run to the other side.

They can... but before the cheap ability was added only they could escape that way.

The ability was made more simplistic for bad players and less useful at actually stopping enemies.

I have about a thousand games with ymir. I know what I'm talking about. ;)

Anyway, I think I made my point.

Good day, sir.

Remarkable (5)
Posts: 63

So what if it is shorter than any leap, you should wall before they are too far after all.

Hirez is not that super big bad at balancing. Yes, they did some mistakes and actually many but at the end of the day, it is not that unbalanced.

No, anhur should always keep that cc, that's why it is called ultimate. He may need other nerf on other abilities but not on cc immunity.

First of all in Anubis, Anubis is only in line damage, not an area. It might damage some enemies but if they separate, he could only hit one people. Leap can also easily dodge that. (Same with ymir's actually. But, the most important thing is that, Anubis is so squishy. If he started the ultimate and everyone start to focus him, he would be dead in 1 second while Ymir can took those damage.

Yes, anhur has 4 escapes but some of it should be used in offensive instead on escape and makes them on Cooldown so you can't use it anymore for running.

I believe that ability is given because after all Ymir is a free god. The god is good for both newbie and pros.

I can't believe you said Ymir is week. Once I got stunned+slow, I instantly be in half health because his teammate could damage me so much. All in all, Ymir is strong (and sexy >_<)

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wrote:

So what if it is shorter than any leap, you should wall before they are too far after all.

that's the point of it.

Its his counter to leaps. it used to counter them and now it doesn't.

End of argument.

Remarkable (5)
Posts: 63

Fair word of warning to anyone else posting here: KarmaShock was a regular poster from the old official SMITE forums (the ones that got taken down a couple weeks ago) who was notorious for his stance on believing tanks were always underpowered compared to DPS gods, even during the times when tanks were very overpowered (and a few still are, is currently a top banpick at the moment). If it comes to the state of tank gods vs. DPS gods, it's probably best to take whatever he says with a grain of salt.

That said, this list is mostly accurate, though the difference between 's pull and ' pull are huge. Arachne's is a difficult skillshot to land, but the opponent has almost no time to respond to it. Ares' can be landed simply by walking into a group of enemies, but the opponents have a good three seconds or so to pop a CC immunity and potentially avoid the pull. When you think about it either way, it seems fitting the strongest form of CC is also the kind with the most snags to it.

Waiting on a good new MOBA, please.

<Veteran>

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wrote:

So what if it is shorter than any leap, you should wall before they are too far after all.

then it isn't a counter...

Look, you want tanks to be under powered fine... take them out of the game... have a one shot festival with AD gods... call it counter strike... the game is supposed to have distinct class and role types.

As to my notorious past... I was right and the some of the same people that couldn't take it shut the forum down because they didn't like daylight being shined in their eyes.

Remarkable (5)
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wrote:

karma. i respect anyone's opinions but let me put it blunt.

TANKS ARE NOT UNDERPOWERED! there job is to take damage protect squissies and cc enemies.

take ymir. he can body block, wall, longest stun, slow x2 and NUKE THE A LANE FROM 1 WALL TO ANOTHER.

funfact ymirs ult is the highest damage you can get in the game.

ymir can do a good bit of damage to a squisshy not counting his ult and that while not even getting scratched by the enemy.

this goes for a large number of tanks.

GUAN YU can bring a squissies health bar down to 1/4 with his dash and assault. if you build gem then they can't escape your assault. his ult is a slow, silence stun. they can't get away when they are silenced and they can barely move. then a stun and all of that in a cone that does a good bit of damage.

ARES. yes ares can almost kill a squishy with only tier 2 boots. he has a heavy slow, a speed buff, an aura proction buff, a shredding cone. and a large AOE multi stun ultimate.

HADES. leap, fear, silence, great punishing move and a large AOE vortex that does a good chunk of damage. and a great lifesteal ability.

SOBEK super cc. dash, stun, pull, knock back, lifesteal, healing debuff and a large AOE slow mana regen burst ultimate. there is little escape from this crocodile just like in real life.

ATHENA. dash, slow, AOE damage skill that is great for bruising, can block 3 basic attacks, has a ranged basic attack and a global damage redusing damaging leap ultimate and last but not least the strongest cc in the game right now the taunt, given in the form of a cone.

BACCHUS the drunken cc master. leap, knock up, healing redusing cone stun, protection buff and a large AOE burst intoxicate.

karma if you want tank's to be more powerfull then how about FOCUS making its return to smite because we all know how well that went.

never forget dawngate and never forgive EA. Freia will hunt them for eternity.

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haven't been on this forum in awhile... so forgive the resurrection.

As to tanks not being under powered, that's mathematically false.

If you look at base damage and tanking per level from level 1 to 20... and compare tanks to damage gods... you'll find that damage scales on most gods from not items to full items at about a ratio of 1 to 10. This is especially consistent on AD gods but even on mages you tend to have something approaching or even exceeding that amount of scaling.

Tanks however scale about 1 to 3 or about a 3rd of the scaling you see from damage gods. That isn't an opinion. Its math.

Do the math yourself. Look at base damage at ANY LEVEL and add items. Then do the same thing for tanks only look at damage soak instead of damage. Compare the ratios.

Account for attack speed, crits, ability damage scaling... whatever you like.

Understand, you see this scaling BEFORE factoring armor pen. After armor pen the comparison becomes laughable.

Then consider the role tanks are supposed to play. Engaging multiple enemies to peel or distract in team fights. How can you do that when a damage god can kill you in ten seconds or less? And that is ONE damage god. If you're dealing with three or four... take that number and drop it.

Tanks today survive by evading damage or getting in and getting out very quickly.

The armor cap is the only cap any of the classes really has to deal with... ONLY tanks are limited in this way. And only tanks have their primary attribute... armor... hard countered by armor pen.

And to make it worse, it is percentage armor pen which means tanks that stack a lot of armor are hurt more while bruisers are hurt less.

Every tank now is best played as a Bruiser for that reason. Sobek might be an exception. But short of that, the hard tanks are all left with very little damage, CC that is less remarkable then many non-tanks, and armor that buys them no more then a couple extra seconds in a team fight.

How can that possibly be considered balanced?

Again, apologies for the resurrection... haven't been here for awhile.

Remarkable (5)
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