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By How Much Should We Reward Skill?

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Forum » General Discussion » By How Much Should We Reward Skill? 7 posts - page 1 of 1
Permalink | Quote | +Rep by Subzero008 » September 17, 2013 10:09pm | Report
Let me tell you a few facts.

1. Some gods/abilities in SMITE take far more skill to use than others.

2. Some gods/abilities in SMITE take far less skill to use than others.

3. High skill is not always rewarded with high effectiveness.

4. Low skill is not always punished with low effectiveness.

Take, for example, Neith's backflip. Just her escape, mind you, not the goddess herself. It is the longest escape in the game, it deals damage in a cone attack, and can go over player-made walls, like Odin's or Ymir's.

This ability takes almost no skill to use. It is simple to hit, simple to escape with, and the only thing that requires any amount of skill is using it to chase. And yet, it is one of the best escapes in the game.

Now, my fifth point: Ideally, we should reward players who can use their abilities effectively. For example, an Anhur who can pillar-stun is far more dangerous than one that needs a nearby wall. However, if we do this too much, there is risk of the game becoming stagnant and dull. Everyone in the higher ELOs would pick high skillcap gods. Also, we need a limit on the rewards of skilled playe, lest they dominate the battlefield too easily.

I cannot think of a better goddess who embodies this than Hel. You can't deny that she's at least fairly powerful, and I think everyone can agree that she takes more skill to use than Neith. However, I believe she is overpowered, because a skilled Hel can have near constant CC immunity on her team, heal them more than Chang'e, and still deal great damage.

I guess my question is simple: Where is the limit? At what point do we put our foot down, point at a god, and say, "That's it, he/she gets a nerf/buff?" Is Neith/Hel/??? at our threshold, or has she gone past it?

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Permalink | Quote | +Rep by Ryvvik » September 17, 2013 11:17pm | Report
I would love to see 'jump attacks' fail to scale walls if they aren't positioned right. I.E. if you are too close or too far you hit the wall and fall rather then clip through it -_-

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Permalink | Quote | +Rep by HiFromBuddha » September 18, 2013 1:39am | Report
I believe that all gods should be balanced the same way, no matter what skill cap. What I believe though, is to allow for harder gods to have more opportunities for impressive/clutch plays. Sorry for making the comparison, but I feel like this is done well in LoL, but not done well in Smite.

A well-played Zed or Orianna in LoL will just make people gawp at how amazing what they just witnessed was. In Smite, I feel like there is not much opportunity for these scenarios. I have never seen a Smite play that has just made me sit there and just stare in awe at how amazing something was. In fact, I'd go as far as to say there are no gods with complex mechanics at all as of right now. There is no orb-walking, no last hitting (arguable) and no hard mechanics that will take a while to get the idea of.

In all honesty, I feel like Smite is easy to pick up. If you pick any god, then you can play him/her decently after 2 or 3 games.

Relating back to the topic, I feel like difficulty should not be a factor of how good a god is. Like you stated, if difficult gods were better than easy gods, then all we'd be seeing is difficult gods in competitive play. In all honesty, it's a hard topic to discuss, but to put it simple, I feel like harder gods to play simply deserve better recognition, but in no way should be better than easy gods.

However, I feel like an ability should never do too much of different things. Neith's Backflip is a huge offender of this, as it offers and escape, soft cc and damage in one ability. It's basically a get out of jail free card, and while I don't mind abilities being simple to use, they should never be braindead as to how easy they are.
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Permalink | Quote | +Rep by withonor » September 18, 2013 2:49am | Report
Just a few specific comments:

Neith's back flip is different than most escapes...you have to be facing the enemy. It's a proactive escape only. Other escapes can be used as offense far better than Neith's. Now, back flipping into a 1 is a great solo lane defense, but very hard to use on offense unless you are seriously pushing the lane, which is entirely possible. Neith is so easy to avoid at the end of the day.

Hel has no ultimate. She has sustain only, which when played right, is forever. I once got an Ares lane partner to 10-1-9 because he never had to return to base unless he chose to do so. Is that too powerful? It comes with a sacrifice: More work. If I take my starting item (Usually a Meditate 1 and Doom Orb 2 with Hel) and go 10 minutes without returning, every minute becomes more difficult to manage because I'm constantly falling behind in items. If I go back, I lose the sustain-experience advantage. Factor in Chang'e having the rabbit, she never has to leave lane, has an ultimate, one of the best 1 skills for laning, a heal and an Aphrodite ultimate for a 2... Is Hel really over-powered?

Having said all that, there aren't many over powered gods in the game. Zhong Kui is the closest thing that resembles that to me. Loki with a 2 level advantage is too powerful. Loki with a 2 level disadvantage is useless. Hercules is stupid. It's hard to say he's over powered until you watch him simultaneously dive two towers, gank three people and come out with 110% health. The game is at a good point. If you know your god and your opponents gods, and how to adapt to each, you can win in every circumstance. If you think you can play the same every match, it's not the god, it's you.

The only thing that changes everything is your team. You could have the worlds best jungler, but if you don't support them at mid-harpies and get them through the first two buffs so they can sustain and not go back to base, they might fall behind and can't gank like you'd expect. Then you factor in the enemy team and it's an impossible equation.

Practice. Adapt.

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Permalink | Quote | +Rep by RazeMage » September 18, 2013 3:29am | Report
HiFromBuddha wrote:

I believe that all gods should be balanced the same way, no matter what skill cap. What I believe though, is to allow for harder gods to have more opportunities for impressive/clutch plays. Sorry for making the comparison, but I feel like this is done well in LoL, but not done well in Smite.

A well-played Zed or Orianna in LoL will just make people gawp at how amazing what they just witnessed was. In Smite, I feel like there is not much opportunity for these scenarios. I have never seen a Smite play that has just made me sit there and just stare in awe at how amazing something was. In fact, I'd go as far as to say there are no gods with complex mechanics at all as of right now. There is no orb-walking, no last hitting (arguable) and no hard mechanics that will take a while to get the idea of.

In all honesty, I feel like Smite is easy to pick up. If you pick any god, then you can play him/her decently after 2 or 3 games.


Totally agree with this. I've seen a zed that played so good that even at half health, he 2 ganker. There is also Katarina who have a sudden penta kill with the surprise essence. And the best thing is that, stealing baron things which is a wonderful thing.

I think SMITE need to do something about that

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Permalink | Quote | +Rep by Subzero008 » September 18, 2013 5:21am | Report
Hrmm. I think one of the bigger problems in SMITE is how idiotproof most of the abilities are, especially some ultimates. I have played some LoL, and some of the ults, like Ashe's, Draven' (Master KS-er), and the like require careful precision (or in Ashe's case, absurd precision) to be used to maximum effect.

Now compare that to, say, Poseidon. His ultimate has great utility, deals great damage, and anyone with a basic grasp of aiming and leading can hit with it without using Whirlpool first.

The worst part is, it feels cheap. You don't think, "oh, gee, he hit me with his huge area attack, kudos to him." You feel angry that you've been killed by a guy with less than 50 worshipers on Poseidon who just cleaned out the house with your ***.

On the other hand, I've seen some pretty good plays. When the Bastet on your team effortlessly dodges almost every attack from the other He Bo, including his ult, and kills him, it's pretty entertaining.

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Permalink | Quote | +Rep by Subzero008 » September 18, 2013 6:03am | Report
HighFromBuddha: Isn't that a contradiction in terms? If you wish that high skill gods were balanced the same way as low skill gods, yet ask for more impressive/clutch plays from the former, your point kinda implodes. After all, the ability to accomplish something another cannot is a big advantage.

Personally, I have no problems with absurdly versatile moves, as long as they require some skill to use. Thor's Tectonic Rift can stun, set up combos, and lock down an area. You can also kill your own team with it. The only problem I have with it is the absurdly long stun for a non-ult, but that can be easily fixed. It's not like Apollo's mesmerize, which is equally versatile, but far simpler to use.

Withonor: Uh, no. Just no. Neith, with one attack, can towerdive like a boss, escape from nearly anything, and with the CC she has, she will be impossible to run from. Don't forget the global ult, and her ability to cover the entire lane with her weaves + Spirit Arrow.

As for Hel...Chang'e is annoying in her stupid immunity and damage potential, but Hel is in another class entirely. She can negate pretty much anything with her moveset. She can heal and sustain through burst/poke damage, she can negate CC with good timing, she can outlast almost any god with her mana regen, and she is WAY more dangerous in a teamfight. Chang'e heals less and deals less damage, and while she can stun the entire enemy team for stupid amounts of time, she can't make her team immune to it. Yes, Chang'e is overpowered (and IMO, badly designed), but she's kinda like a watered-down, more accessible Hel.

And for adaptation? It has its limits. Don't forget that such statements like "Practice. Adapt" also apply to the enemy team.

RazeMage: Hi again. Yeah, I agree. But I do like the more ... universal aspect of SMITE. In LoL, combat is far more static. Soraka and Vayne will always kill Cho'gath. Cho'gath will always kill an unprepared Master Yi. A fed Jax will win the game, unless the other team somehow has a 480-0. Combat is a bit repetitive, at times, when you know the result 10 seconds before it happens.

What I like about SMITE, and the reason why I play it more often than LoL, is how you can do some truly impressive things with proper skill that no one sees coming. Even if you are in a situation where you should, by all means, die, you always have the chance of living through the day*.

*Except for those depressingly common situations where skill is not a factor. Take, for example, Zeus' idiotically designed Aegis Shield and Chain Lightning. The former shuts down any carry for a few seconds, and the latter is not a skillshot 90% of the time. (Seriously, two charges from hitting a nearby minion? WTF?)

While the point of this thread is to complain about the opposite of what happened above, that doesn't change the fact that skilled plays exist.**

**Albeit being slightly rarer than unicorns.

I think Anhur is the ideal mix of rewarding skill but remaining balanced. His escape isn't crazy. His stun is a skillshot. His pillar takes a lot of practice to master, and his ultimate is amazing when used correctly. At the same time, he can't do anything crazy. He's still useless against Vamana, he's still vulnerable to ganks as much as any carry, and even with his pillar-stun, he still remains focused on single-target damage and loses value in a teamfight.

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