Dissecting Smite #1: Oversexualization, Stereotyping, Double-Standards, and Other Misogyny in Smite :: Page 16

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I copied it to make sure, and am sending you a private message with everything in case you accidentally lost it.

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I'll just do a TL;DR type post, Since my response was way to big. So these points will be basic:

With regards to men also being over-sexualised - some popular examples:
Magic mike
Game of Thrones
American Horror Story Freak Show
Merlin

It exists. Is it a wide-spread issue or serious? I don't know. I have no evidence comparing male and female advantages and disadvantages fairly, so I won't comment.

With regards to internalized sexism and culture:

Can culture affect us severely in some sub-conscious way? Maybe. It would be incredibly difficult to measure or find evidence for. Propaganda is a pretty extreme example, comparative to a video game with no political message. Is gaming culture entire separate from other culture(s) - no. They have their cross-overs. But they also have their key differences. One being that games don't reflect actions to be taken in reality.

Internalized sexism is possible. Is it widespread? I doubt it. Similar to internalized homophobia. Is it related to whether or not Smite causes real-world sexism? I don't think it is, but you may disagree.

With regards to Deities:

Humans represent them in myths, lore and tales, but if they exist then they are independent of us. They are immortal and have magical power as you say, so they are fundamentally different from humans and not to be treated in the same way [they're pretty big differences.] This goes for your logic on armour, weapons and nudity. Deities and humans are fundamentally different, so if they were to exist I doubt our logic would apply to them. Treating them like humans is disrespectful, as they fundamentally aren't, even if they share traits theoretically.

Smite is a MOBA, not a SIM. So naturally characters will only ever be dressed in one way [except for skins.] They don't get changed in the middle of battle.

With regards to Sources:

You're making claims, the onus is on you to provide valid and neutral sources for your all of your claims, which you haven't done IMO. You've provided an invalid source for Rape culture and multiple invalid / bias sources for internalized sexism. Nothing on how sexualisation causes real-world sexism, neither in the context of video games or a wider context. But let me explain why these sources aren't to be trusted/used:

Wikipedia isn't a source to use generally due to edit wars. And citing feminist sites is problematic if you're trying to present facts rather than ideology. Protip: The best place to get E-journals from Academics is websites like JSTOR, Dawnsonera and the University of Cambridge/Oxford Press websites. They tend to be of a high quality, although that doesn't mean they're perfect or unbias either. But it's a much better place to start.

With regards to Artistic justification and lore

I agree that they need to be consistent - male Gods should be presented in lore terms just like female ones are. But we must also reserve the right of Hi-rez to take artistic liberties, as is their right as part of a liberal society. Do I think it's unfair that male Gods are generally more diverse atm? Yes. I hope they find new female Gods that they can present in more unique ways, for the sake of keeping things fresh and fair. But do I think this is an immense issue? Not at all. I think naturally, as the roster increases, we'll get more quirky male and female deities.

With regards to beauty and sexualization:

They are both subjective. What is sexual to one could be beautiful to another. Or it could even be unappealing. They aren't arbitrary or objective, it's entirely open to interpretation. This is also in the context of deities - who are frequently sexualised anyway. They're already at an extreme to us, as they were discussed in a time way before our own, before concepts of things like equality existed. They're also from entirely different cultures, which is pretty important.

Conclusion:

Sexism is bad [Obviously.] But you've provided no proof, let alone valid evidence, that Sexualized pixels in video games are linked to real-world sexism. Some things you've said I feel are warranted - such as the fact that male and female deities in smite have been treated differently in terms of art direction. But overall unless you have compelling evidence to prove why this causes real-world sexism, and isn't simply an unfortunate fact, alot of what you said would be unjustified.

Remarkable (9)
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wrote:

With regards to Sources:

You're making claims, the onus is on you to provide valid and neutral sources for your all of your claims, which you haven't done IMO. You've provided an invalid source for Rape culture and multiple invalid / bias sources for internalized sexism. Nothing on how sexualisation causes real-world sexism, neither in the context of video games or a wider context. But let me explain why these sources aren't to be trusted/used:

Wikipedia isn't a source to use generally due to edit wars. And citing feminist sites is problematic if you're trying to present facts rather than ideology. Protip: The best place to get E-journals from Academics is websites like JSTOR, Dawnsonera and the University of Cambridge/Oxford Press websites. They tend to be of a high quality, although that doesn't mean they're perfect or unbias either. But it's a much better place to start.

Dude. You are full of ****ing ****. Literally. I posted a perfectly credible source. That has a compilation of multiple studies. It has over 3 pages of sources from PhD's and the studies they did. None of the studies were complex and having read through it, I found nothing wrong with it. You have come back with absolute worthless ****. You cannot simply say "it's flawed". Go find the ****ing proof.

You have come in here, made up a ton of ****...You never give proof and just bash people with your ****ing ignorance....

What's the point in Sub finding a more credible source? So you can claim that all 20+ of the PhD's and all their peers made tons of mistakes that invalidate their research? Dude you're full of ****.

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Just out of curiosity I made a survey to see what the numbers look like on this...

https://www.surveymonkey.com/s/GCCBXYW

Lets see what people think

Notable (1)
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wrote:

Just out of curiosity I made a survey to see what the numbers look like on this...

https://www.surveymonkey.com/s/GCCBXYW

Lets see what people think

i humored it and voted but votes are not how you deturmen who is right or wrong.

very simply put we aren't the masses, we are more like a small group who by discussion try to figure out what is the best solution, maybe the best solution for the masses.

effectively it's a kind of liberal way of doing it, have people who don't follow the masses blindly and hopefully are smart discuss this to come to the conclusions.

never forget dawngate and never forgive EA. Freia will hunt them for eternity.

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Damn, I've got a lot to say. Give me some black coffee and an hour.

edit::

First of all -

This problem is bigger than Smite. It is ingrained into society - the sexualization of women and the fact that that sexuality specifically has to be for heterosexual men. By combating the little problems in the grander picture (i.e. Smite), we're moving forward. By ignoring them we're ignoring the issue as a whole and

The sexualization of men - i.e. Magic Mike, etc, is a moot point. Men aren't overtly sexualized for women. Men are overtly sexualized for men. And when I say this, it's not in a 'omg totally gay' way. It's in a 'due to the patriarchial views of society supported by men and upheld by men, men generally sexualize themselves in a way that makes them feel more powerful, more muscular.'

The first magazine is targeted at men. Hypersexualized, right? Abs, shirtless, the whole kablooey. The second is targeted more generally, though mostly at women. Regular guy in a regular t shirt that will cook you food. The biggest sexualizers of men are men. Is that to say women don't do it? No. But women don't view men the same way men view men.

And I want to take this time to veer away from the topic of Smite exlusively because I know I'm going to get angry messages about 'I've never done that! You're stereotyping me because I'm a man!' I never said you did. I said the male dominated and driven society does. This isn't personal - it's much bigger than you.

Missrepresentation is a great documentary on Netflix on the representation of women in media. I think it would do you a lot of good to watch it and I urge you to do so.

By disregarding Smite's problematic character designs, you're disregarding the opportunity to make a change.

I'm super cold and also super sleepy, so I'll add more tomorrow. But I urge you all to do more research into how rampant oversexualization of women is - and how our own sexuality is taken away from us to be used as a bargaining chip for capitalistic gains. But more than anything, I want you to look at what I've said and either say a) I'm going to disagree with her and bring up valid points I have researched and lived or b) totally agree with her and be happy someone is describing what I feel. This isn't a personal attack and if you take it as one as a man it's because you've completely missed my entire point.

If the blatant double standards of Smite is on your mind less than Ao Kuang's build, you should probably ask yourself why the bombardment of unrealistic standards set on women aren't very important to you.

Notable (3)
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wrote:

Just out of curiosity I made a survey to see what the numbers look like on this...

https://www.surveymonkey.com/s/GCCBXYW

Lets see what people think

Of course, gathering the general consensus still doesn't mean you have found the better answer. There's usually always validity in both opinions.

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wrote:

Damn, I've got a lot to say. Give me some black coffee and an hour.

What the hell is this Sarkeesian ********?

Really? Patriarchy? Capitalistic gains?

I'll ****ing tell you why the "blatant double standards of Smite" aren't on our mind as much as what to build Ao Kuang, because some of us JUST WANT TO PLAY THE ******** GAME.

Your post is condescending, pretentious, and filled with fourth wave Feminist Theory, and if you actually think you're going to persuade anyone you're right with your "patriarchy" ********, you're absolutely wrong.

I apologize up front for the harshness, but I have a very strong opinion about feminists in video games.

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wrote:

No. I haven't looked at YOUR source yet, which if you'd read my reply directly to you you'd already know. I was debunking SUBS sources. I've already told you this, read it:

wrote:

The fact that it's written by people with a PHD is an irrelevant appeal to authority. Academics can always be wrong, regardless of their background. Plenty of articles - and I mean plenty - go through the peer review process and remain weak. That is because the process itself is fundamentally flawed in a number of ways.

As I said, I'll discuss it tomorrow. I'm still tackling Sub's massive post.

You clearly have your stance on this. But attacking me personally does nothing for your argument. The onus is not on me to find proof that video games do or don't cause sexism - because I am not the one claiming they do. I repeat - The burden of proof is not on me in this instance because I am not the one making unfounded links between pixels and real-world sexism.

"What the point in sub finding a more credible source" implies that you think the current sources AREN'T credible yourself. The fact that you just asked what the point is of having credible and neutral sources to back up your claims is baffling. Regardless of academic qualification, they can absolutely be wrong. If you knew the first thing about academia, you'd know that there are hundreds of debates across thousands of topics. That is because academics frequently contend each other and their interpretations. PHD students are not a magical exception to this rule.

You really need to look up the appeal to authority fallacy. Infact, I've done it for you:
https://www.princeton.edu/~achaney/tmve/wiki100k/docs/Appeal_to_authority.html - 'Argument from authority (also known as appeal to authority) is a fallacy of defective induction, where it is argued that a statement is correct because the statement is made by a person or source that is commonly regarded as authoritative.'

Most importantly: 'The fallacy only arises when it is claimed or implied that the authority is infallible in principle and can hence be exempted from criticism.'

See also: http://www.logicalfallacies.info/relevance/appeals/appeal-to-authority/ [largely on the informal use]

http://www.logicallyfallacious.com/index.php/logical-fallacies/21-appeal-to-authority 'According to person 1, Y is true.
Therefore, Y is true.'

You're stating that the study is sound because it was published by a high-end college/university and was written by PHD students. That is an appeal to authority.

Remarkable (9)
Posts: 166

wrote:

This problem is bigger than Smite. It is ingrained into society - the sexualization of women and the fact that that sexuality specifically has to be for heterosexual men. By combating the little problems in the grander picture (i.e. Smite), we're moving forward. By ignoring them we're ignoring the issue as a whole

It's only a problem if you think sexuality itself is a problem. Humans are sexual creatures. We always have been. There is nothing implicitly wrong in representing either gender as sexually attractive. In a society of agency, it is absolutely fair game to present men and women however you please.

wrote:

The sexualization of men - i.e. Magic Mike, etc, is a moot point. Men aren't overtly sexualized for women. Men are overtly sexualized for men. And when I say this, it's not in a 'omg totally gay' way. It's in a 'due to the patriarchial views of society supported by men and upheld by men, men generally sexualize themselves in a way that makes them feel more powerful, more muscular.'

Patriarchy has never been proven, and is a radical feminist theory. Your ideology is not evidence. Magic mike is a story about a highly attractive male stripper with his shirt off. If you honestly think that some heterosexual women would not find a physically active male stripper sexually alluring, I don't know what to tell you. Gay men compose around 5% of the global demographic. Women compose around 50%, and around 5% may be gay. The target audience is not gay men - it is straight women who compose a much larger portion of any given culture.

By your own logic - Women also tend to sexualise themselves in a way that makes them feel more powerful, more alluring and more attractive. Literally look at female culture - make-up, diets and womens magazines promising you secrets on becoming attractive. And there's nothing wrong with that. Men and women are allowed to fantasize about their looks as much as they wish.

wrote:

Fair assessment. There's obviously exceptions to the rule, but generally I believe you are correct on this statement.

wrote:

The biggest sexualizers of men are men. Is that to say women don't do it? No. But women don't view men the same way men view men.

Citation needed. You just made a massive leap based on two magazines. Men don't view women the same way women view women, either. What's your point? Some women view men sexually. Some men view women sexually. Most CAN view the opposite gender sexually, but by no means do they do so exclusively.

wrote:

And I want to take this time to veer away from the topic of Smite exlusively because I know I'm going to get angry messages about 'I've never done that! You're stereotyping me because I'm a man!' I never said you did. I said the male dominated and driven society does. This isn't personal - it's much bigger than you.

I'd rather discuss smite - which we still haven't discussed at all. No Western society is "male dominated." Demographically women and men compose around 50% of the world gender. Society and culture are not male dominated either. They were - to some extent - a century ago. By now though? Absolutely not. That is third-wave Feminist theory, but it is just that, a theory.

wrote:

Missrepresentation is a great documentary on Netflix on the representation of women in media. I think it would do you a lot of good to watch it and I urge you to do so.

By disregarding Smite's problematic character designs, you're disregarding the opportunity to make a change.

Women, men, gay, straight, various ethnicities, various religious groups have all and continue to all be mis-represented both in the media and otherwise. This is not a problem exclusive to women, or to any one race, sexuality or religious creed.

These designs are often sexual. Why is that a problem? They're pixels. It has no real-world implication, not when its done to males or females. And this isn't about Smite becoming a revolutionary political game. It is a MOBA. Your politics are not relevant here, in a game.

wrote:

I'm super cold and also super sleepy, so I'll add more tomorrow. But I urge you all to do more research into how rampant oversexualization of women is - and how our own sexuality is taken away from us to be used as a bargaining chip for capitalistic gains. But more than anything, I want you to look at what I've said and either say a) I'm going to disagree with her and bring up valid points I have researched and lived or b) totally agree with her and be happy someone is describing what I feel. This isn't a personal attack and if you take it as one as a man it's because you've completely missed my entire point.

By all means, I GET HOW you've come to your conclusions. I do not think they're valid. You've made way to many leaps > patriarchy with no definitive proof > male dominated culture/society with no definitive proof > men over-sexualise both men and women with no definitive proof.

But I do understand why you're concerned about OVER-sexualisation. But the fact of the matter is that over-sexualisation is not arbitrary - it is subjective. I don't think Apollo is over-sexualised, because in context he was frequently a sexual [also bi-sexual] deity. He could actually be way more sexual and the lore would still fit. The same can be said for most male and female deities. In context it is appropriate.

wrote:

If the blatant double standards of Smite is on your mind less than Ao Kuang's build, you should probably ask yourself why the bombardment of unrealistic standards set on women aren't very important to you.

It's probably because gamers come to game, not to think about representation of women or men. That doesn't make them evil. Same can be said for Hi-rez. There ARE double-standards in Smite models > that doesn't mean the Goddesses should be dressed in a less sexual manner. It simply means that any sexual male God should also be dressed in a sexual manner.

Remarkable (9)
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Dissecting Smite #1: Oversexualization, Stereotyping, Double-Standards, and Other Misogyny in Smite

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