A Little Balance Problem (Specialization and Dueling)

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I know I'm probably opening up a can of worms here (or maybe a nest of snakes), but I'd like to discuss balance issues here. Specifically, , and why I think he is more balanced than . Keep in mind that every one of these statements is my opinion.

Okay, I know Mercury is currently #1 banned in league. His semi-global ult, powerful steroid, a good poke/finisher, and general mobility and CC make him a huge threat. He is an extremely strong duelist but I believe he falls off ever-so-slightly late game, since he is still squishy and everyone is grouped. A better example of a "melee ADC" would be , who has an answer to grouping.

As of 1/1/14, I think Mercury is pretty balanced, because he has a clear set of weaknesses, such as a lack of long-range options (especially with the fix to ), his weaker early game compared to other assassins like , and the fact that he is a squishy little man. He may be specialized in melee basics, but that doesn't mean he is unbeatable in melee or basics.

Now, consider Freya. Her combination of insane burst damage, strong sustained damage, two forms of CC, and what I'd honestly consider to be another semi-global ultimate (seriously, that thing has huge range and can be aimed through corners) make her a very strong god. Perhaps too strong.

Except for the latelategame, I would say that a Freya with a sensible build can trump an ADC's damage in a duel every time, barring exceptional circumstances. Her massive single-target damage and her "APC-ness" are supposedly balanced by the fact that she melts about as fast as she gets melted.

Her two self buffs can be combined into one powerful buff that literally combines both sources of damage (and unlike previous patches, all of 's damage is added. I've checked), and her ultimate deals, in my opinion, way too much damage for what it gives her.

But her is the kicker. magi's blessing and don't do squat to it. The former just doesn't work*, and the latter can only be used while rising or falling. It is the ultimate answer to dueling, being a perfect way to escape or reposition herself, to steal camps, to gank, or to fight in the jungle.

Freya is another specialized god, but she has the strengths of an overspecialized god, without the weaknesses. An example of a overspecialized god would be , who pretty much relies solely on basic attacks, and is strongest in the late game. Artemis has her weaknesses and downsides, like the lack of CC and underwhelming early and midgame damage.

Freya doesn't have any of those weaknesses, at least for one on one fights. She is specialized in ranged basics, but she is unbeatable in dueling, due to the fact that she has both good burst and sustained damage in one package, with a powerful CC, not to mention the fact that she is melee in name only. This is where I feel specialization goes too far.

Now's where this thing becomes a bit open-ended. Why should you care?

There are a lot of specialized gods in this game, like , , and others. I guess what I am trying to say is that the fact they are specialized in dueling shouldn't be a balancing factor. We shouldn't say, "This god's weaker in teamfights" and use that to justify them being unbeatable** in dueling.

That's my 2 cents.

*Might be a bug, since it consumes the shield.

**When I say unbeatable, I mean in all stages of the game. Chronos has his pathetic laning but has a niche against melee bruisers. Freya hits like a truck (and later, like a tank) in all stages of the game and has good enough clearing and sustain to survive in mid.

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In my opinion, Mercury is less balanced compared to freya because of the fact that no matter how good you are at smite, you will still be a threat as Mercury, compared to Freya.

If we take a look at Mercury, firstly his passive is amazing. Not only he gets additional damage from just walking but the additional damage from movement speed means that not only he benefits more from the speed buff, but heart seekers gets him more damage compared to other junglers.

His 1 early game is admittedly mediocre. But with the ability to level it to level 9 means at that time he has a ranged aoe ability that could possibly crit everyone in the area. At level 5, even a new player could hit that skill shot. Furthermore, because it is a basic attack, items such as qins sais and rage would take effect upon the hit, stacking and doing more damage than usual. This ability makes it so his late game is just too strong as he doesn't have to get close to the enemy to hit them

His 2 is just a really good late game buff, as he can deplete the enemies heal to nothing just by auto attacking them in a matter of seconds. 60% attack speed is a lot, considering he is built with qins sais and sometimes rage, the damage he deals per second is too much for a jungler late game

His 3 is a very good escape and initiation tool. He can pretty much gank and stun the enemy for 1 second, then throw them towards his team to for the kill. With this ability, he can pretty much gank from any of the jungle paths no matter where the enemy is. It is a hard ability to miss the enemy with.

His ultimate is what truly makes him amazing. He can literally gank from anywhere in the lane, meaning that positioning is little to no concern to mercury, compared to other junglers that require to be close to the enemy team. Furthermore a good merc could cause you to get disorientated and then uses his 2 to kill you with crits.

In total Mercury is a god that has huge amount of attack damage and burst damage, doesn't have to worry about positioning and can crit the whole enemy team with his one when he isn't even close to the enemy.

As for freya,

Her passive is life steal, allowing some survivability but doesn't increase her skill as a jungler.

Her 1 is a attack buff that will increase the amount of damage she does when her two is active but loses the slow and aoe effect. Hard for a newbie to tell when to activate the 1 and when is it better for the slow effect to apply

Her 2 causes her auto attacks to become aoe and slow the enemy for 25%, pretty useful for clearing and ganking, but still needed to get into range. Furthermore, you can beads the slow and just walk away from her.

Her 3 need proper usage. Of course it is one of the best CC abilities as it is an ability that isn't affected b y beads or aegis and is aoe. But it is hard to aim the banish and it can cause the enemy to benefit as it could give them enough tiem for their escape ability to come up, meaning you have just let the enemy escape.

Her ultimate really has a huge hitbox yet it is hard for the new player to understand how to use this as there is a delay between the ultimate being fired and the ultimate landing on the enemy. Most new players just spam it.

Of course we could say that if freya was played by a pro, there would be no problems and it would be even. However slight things we have to look at is the fact that the lane that a jungler wants to gank the most is middle lane, however the middle lane is bound to build magic defence instead of physical defence as it helps them lane against the opponent mid. Furthermore, Freya has to come from the jungle to gank the mid, while merc could just gank from the lane because of his ultimate. In addition, Freya can be seen coming if the opponent buys wards, meaning that the opponent mid could just run away. The addition of magic solo also ruins freya as the opponent solo laner would just build magical defence meaning that freya would not be to gank as easily compared to mercury. In a 1 on 1 mercury is more likely to win as freya's gumballs are jukable while mercury brings himself into the fight, and just goes around freya aa. If he gets banished then all he has to do is 3 freya to make her waste her buffed aas and aa her to death.

Overall, I love to play Freya, but Mercury does out play her in the jungle role.

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wrote:

-snip-

Where your opinion is mostly correct when based on new players, the topic Sub wants to discuss is mostly with competitive play in mind where whoever would play Mercury and or Freya are equally skillful. I assume, anyway.

Stating above because i'm curious as to what people will bring to the discussion with competitive play in mind, I, for one, don't really know what to add, I'm a little out of touch with and competitive play, since I'm building my way back up from level 1 again.

The only thing I can muster up is that has a far superior early ganking potential and better early jungle clearance, making posibilities of a early lead bigger. Which is by far the most important benefit any jungler can give. |
(Mentionable: Mercury's 3 is a easy set-up for any one's ult that either ticks once (Kraken) or multiple times (Tornado) while dealing damage and throwing him/her away from the tower, wheras Freya's 3 makes a easy line-up only for a 1-tick ult).

EDIT: @cold Your latter part does include competitive play comparisons, oopsie!

That's just my 2 cents.

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I just really like the fact that Mercury can pretty much gank from anywhere, imo a first rate jungler needs to have good position as it could lead to no kills or a death. But pros playing mercury can just walk into lane, 3, aa, 4, 2, aa, 1 or something like that.

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wrote:

The only thing I can muster up is that has a far superior early ganking potential and better early jungle clearance, making posibilities of a early lead bigger. Which is by far the most important benefit any jungler can give. |
(Mentionable: Mercury's 3 is a easy set-up for any one's ult that either ticks once (Kraken) or multiple times (Tornado) while dealing damage and throwing him/her away from the tower, wheras Freya's 3 makes a easy line-up only for a 1-tick ult).

EDIT: @cold Your latter part does include competitive play comparisons, oopsie!

Really? From my experience, it's the opposite: Merc's early game is worse than Freya's since, Merc is pretty much a melee ADC and lacks burst, so his ganks are really best when with a teammate.

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There are reasons why is almost always banned while is considered to be only an upper-middle tier pick.

First off, Freya has a rather weak early game, and she's not exactly the most ideal in any starting role. She's a poor solo/mid who gets outpushed too easily and mana starved, there are better combos for the duo lane, and she must rush a to start picking up steam in the jungle. Whatever she can do early on, another god could do much better. She makes up for all of this with her strong mid-late game, but early on she has issues, and a team that knows what they're doing will shut her down before it ever happens... which is not very hard at all early on due to her lack of escapes.

Mercury, on the other hand, has a defined role, and he's almost always picked as a jungler because he's good at it. He's mobile, he has a good clear, he can get out of trouble easy, and his is all kinds of unpleasant for whoever he runs into. Sure, you can argue essentially does the exact same thing, but the difference is Banished enemies are completely safe until they drop down while whoever Mercury is swinging around can still be sitting in a Path of Flame and taking stupid amounts of damage. Skills that not only immobilize, but also move enemies into unfavorable positions are always going to be viewed as powerful; it's the main reason has always been top a tier tank.

He's not just good early on. Because he has such an amazing steroid in his (+60% is more than the two best attack speed items combined), he is capable of dishing out incredible damage at a ridiculous rate once he's built up. Throw in some lifesteal and a +, and his dueling ability is insane.

There's also a significant difference in skill cap between these two gods. Freya is all about landing her consistently; if she can't do that, she's missing out on a lot of potential. She also requires much more care in positioning because she lacks reliable escapes. Sure, using her ultimate might save your life, but now you're an easy gank target for a good 90 seconds. Mercury doesn't require that degree of skill to land , nor does he have to be so careful where he positions himself (unless he really messed up his ult). A good Mercury can be just as effective as a great Freya.

EDIT: Damn, a lotta people beat me to the punch.

Waiting on a good new MOBA, please.

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Just pointing this out. The reason I never join these kind of discussions is because I always see it to late. Everyone has already said what I would/could say.

I'll just add this.
has little skill to take. The only thing you need to practice on is her after that just get and with your other stuff.

on the other hand takes a LOT of skill. If your an experienced player you know how he can be an *** as well as a ***** in jungle.

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wrote:

Of course we could say that if freya was played by a pro, there would be no problems and it would be even. However slight things we have to look at is the fact that the lane that a jungler wants to gank the most is middle lane, however the middle lane is bound to build magic defence instead of physical defence as it helps them lane against the opponent mid. Furthermore, Freya has to come from the jungle to gank the mid, while merc could just gank from the lane because of his ultimate. In addition, Freya can be seen coming if the opponent buys wards, meaning that the opponent mid could just run away. The addition of magic solo also ruins freya as the opponent solo laner would just build magical defence meaning that freya would not be to gank as easily compared to mercury. In a 1 on 1 mercury is more likely to win as freya's gumballs are jukable while mercury brings himself into the fight, and just goes around freya aa. If he gets banished then all he has to do is 3 freya to make her waste her buffed aas and aa her to death.

Um...

Magic Defense isn't always picked, Freya gets regardless.

Mercury has to gank from the jungle, initiating with is an idiotic idea when ganking, not only because it is telegraphed, but because it is a waste of a perfectly good finisher.

EVERYONE can be seen if you buy wards. Mercury is no different.

Not everyone is a magical solo. Seriously, are you just trolling?

Freya's 'gumballs' are jukable? That's an arguement you can apply to every skillshot in the game! "Goes around Freya's AAs?" WTF?

Dash though her autos. Her autos that deal massive damage. Sure. Uh huh. I'm sure that'll waste them. /sarcasm

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wrote:

I've jungled as and against them both, and I'm just writing what I think. I know that Freya hasa higher skill floor due to the lack of an escape, but Mercury may have a higher skill ceiling.

One more thing: Skill ceilings and floors should NEVER be taken into account when balancing. Even if you need to be a pro to play a god, that god shouldn't be unbeatable.

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wrote:

There are reasons why is almost always banned while is considered to be only an upper-middle tier pick.

I disagree, respectfully. Oh, and uh, keep in mind that I use Mercury as a comparison for a balanced vs nonbalanced god thingy.

wrote:

First off, Freya has a rather weak early game, and she's not exactly the most ideal in any starting role. She's a poor solo/mid who gets outpushed too easily and mana starved, there are better combos for the duo lane, and she must rush a to start picking up steam in the jungle. Whatever she can do early on, another god could do much better. She makes up for all of this with her strong mid-late game, but early on she has issues, and a team that knows what they're doing will shut her down before it ever happens... which is not very hard at all early on due to her lack of escapes.

I don't consider her early game to be weak. I consider it to be very strong. The kings of the early game like Thanatos or Fenrir are going to steamroll her, but I believe Merc has a weaker early game, even though they are arguably equal duelists.(Note: NOT AGAINST EACH OTHER!)

And unless a laner leaves to help the jungler find and kill her, a will solve pretty much any attempt to shut her down. A good Freya can hit with her easily, and it's pretty difficult to recover from that. Unlike , Banish can be used without putting yourself in danger. Not to mention she can counter many melee junglers due to her slow on her .

wrote:

Mercury, on the other hand, has a defined role, and he's almost always picked as a jungler because he's good at it. He's mobile, he has a good clear, he can get out of trouble easy, and his is all kinds of unpleasant for whoever he runs into. Sure, you can argue essentially does the exact same thing, but the difference is Banished enemies are completely safe until they drop down while whoever Mercury is swinging around can still be sitting in a Path of Flame and taking stupid amounts of damage. Skills that not only immobilize, but also move enemies into unfavorable positions are always going to be viewed as powerful; it's the main reason has always been top a tier tank.

Banished is better, IMO, because you can still be hit while falling. I'm not making this up, I'm not exaggerating, there is a period of time where you are falling and you can still be hit. I cannot emphasize this enough. Not to mention Banish can be used at range, and beads doesn't work, but it works on Special Delivery. I'm not exaggerating! Seriously! I'm not joking!

Basically, my counterpoint is that gives the same period of vulnerability, while being able to be used at range and as an escape in duels, but lacks the push effect of . I argue that Banish is more useful.

wrote:

He's not just good early on. Because he has such an amazing steroid in his (+60% is more than the two best attack speed items combined), he is capable of dishing out incredible damage at a ridiculous rate once he's built up. Throw in some lifesteal and a +, and his dueling ability is insane.

Well, yeah. No one is arguing with Merc being a carry. But so is Freya.

Also, I may be in disagreement with you about this, but I think Merc's early game is weaker. Both are carries and will be focusing on farming early, and Merc may be faster, but Freya has a better clear speed and sustainability. In levels 2-5, I'd say Freya would win a duel between them.

wrote:

There's also a significant difference in skill cap between these two gods. Freya is all about landing her consistently; if she can't do that, she's missing out on a lot of potential. She also requires much more care in positioning because she lacks reliable escapes. Sure, using her ultimate might save your life, but now you're an easy gank target for a good 90 seconds. Mercury doesn't require that degree of skill to land , nor does he have to be so careful where he positions himself (unless he really messed up his ult). A good Mercury can be just as effective as a great Freya.

I wouldn't really advise factoring skillcap in a balance discussion. I do agree that Merc has a lower skill floor. Oh, and your statements about both escapes is kinda of, uh, let me explain.

Freya's ultimate is a really good deterrence tool, but not an escape. It deals damage, but your movement and distance are slow. It's more for avoiding nasty things, really.

Merc's ult CAN be used as an escape, but naturally doesn't work well in the jungler. Both are ultimates, and have high cooldowns.

Merc's is a dash that stops at an enemy god. It goes a fair distance, and at a fair speed. It can be used as an escape, but it is usually spent to initiate into wall + steriod. Merc needs to use it as a gap closer before delivering the hurt, and arguably its versatility is what makes it rather poor as an escape, since he is unlikely to keep it in reserve if a fight goes south.

Banish, on the other hand, is reserved solely for ganking and/or escapes. Not as a gap closer. Freya can use it to distance herself possibly even better than Merc's dash, and it can be used at range, and is more likely to be kept in reserve. I think Freya might have the better deal here.

Sorry about the rambling.

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A Little Balance Problem (Specialization and Dueling)

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