Balancing Discussion: The Real Deal

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The goal of this thread is to go over gods that we have found in need of balance, reach an agreement of the changes that need to be made, and then, finally, send a letter to Hi-Rez Kelly, so that hopefully, we won't be just wishful-~~thinking~~balancing.

Rules

Please read all the rules down below. I know it's a pain, but for us to have a proper, fruitful and organized thread, you must know all of them.

We will be balancing gods solely according to Conquest. It is the main gamemode of SMITE, and while Arena is always nice to play, it isn't the main focus.
This thread is solely about balancing gods. We do not discuss anything other than that, includinhg skins, items, game modes or anything else.
We will be going through each and every god listed below, one at a time. In each list we start from A-Z. You may not skip to another god until we have finished with the current one.
We will not discuss Ao Kuang as he is going to get a rework.
We will not discuss new gods until a newer one is released, as there are always readjustments and furthermore balances after a new god is released.
We are not looking to reinvent the game. If we do so, the letter to Hi-Rez Kelly will be meaningless. We want to handle what we currently have in the game.
If you are not happy with the decisions / ideas that were agreed in previous gods that we have finished, you may only re-discuss them only spoilers, and name the spoilers accordingly.
If you think that a certain god should be added to one of the lists below, you may only say that in spoilers and name them accordingly. You may not argue to move a god that is already listed to a different list.
If many people find that we need to re-discuss a certain god that we have supposedly finished discussing, then we will reopen that god's discussion after we have finished discussing the current one.
Be respectful towards each other and each other's ideas. Some of them may be just prototype ideas that people have pulled straight from their minds to maybe give a new lead, and not so deeply-thought, which is okay.
Do not take any criticism or feedback personally. They are targeted towards ideas and not their creators. This is considering people follow the rule above.
Try to be as objective as you can. Obviously, as human beings, we all have subjective feelings towards almost everything and everyone. That is okay. But if Bastet is your ~~waifu~~ favorite character in SMITE, try to look at her from a different perspective, rather than "She needs to be able to jump back while under CC again!".
You must understand the logic of the game. Granted, there are many contradictions in the game that just don't make sense, and we are here to try to fix some of them. For example, if we are reworking / balancing a Guardian, you must know that Guardians should not have pure damage abilities that have to supportive / defensive use.
Try to write clearly. Use question marks, commas, periods, write different ideas / things in different paragraphs. Also, and this is optional but recommended, the use a little bit of BBCoding could make a whole lot of difference in understanding your ideas, like using underlined text, and some more BBCoding would make it much more pleasing to read.

recommended bbcoding template

This is useful for clearly presenting new ideas and balances for a god's existing abilities.

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Code:

[icon=ABILITY NAME size=50] [indent] bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla [/indent]

Just type the name of the ability instead of "ABILITY NAME".

Gods Lists

There will be 3 lists.
The first is for gods that need a full / almost full rework, as they are nearly if not completely nonviable.
The second is for gods that need quite a buff / nerf.
The third is for gods that need some tweaking.

Reworks

arachne summary

The Arachne discussion has taken place in pages 1-2.

Problems

Her passive, poison claws, are only useful in the early game, mainly through levels 1-5, and then drops down drastically, because of its poor scaling and the increase in auto attack damage through many items, mainly critical strike chance items.

are too squishy late game - they could be taken out by two auto attacks or a single ability.

is an old skill that is very awkward and weird to use. Its damage is underwhelming and late game you will just get bursted down immediately if you jump on people.

tangled web could use a slight buff.

She is too much reliant on her . This ability has almost zero counterplay, but without it, Arachne has no initiation and looses everything she has.

Suggestions

poison claws

Replace the current base damage with one that scales according to her level. She starts with 5 base damage and gets an additional 1 base damage for every level, so at level 20, she has 25 base damage.

Grant the spiders 50% damage reduction to all AoE damage sources and have their health scale: 75/150/225/300/375.

Transfer Cocoon to be her 2nd ability instead of her ultimate. It should now have a 20/19/18/17/16s cooldown. Reduce the stun duration from 1.5s to 1, and it cannot be fired through walls anymore. Slightly reduce the width of the projectile and the projectile speed as well, to the speed of Ullr's Thrown Axe. This means that now players could use while being pulled to interrupt it.

tangled web

Reduce the slow to 25/30/35/40/45% and grant Arachne and her spiderlings about 20% increased movement speed while in it.

New Ultimate: Paralysis:

Arachne pounces on her melee target, dealing damage every 0.5s for 1.5s and healing for 100% the damage dealt while silencing the enemy and controlling their movement. If the target is affected by poison claws, Arachne refreshes its duration on the target. Arachne is immune to Crowd Control effects for the duration.

Damage: 70/100/130/160/190 damage (+40% of your physical power)
Damage (total): 210/300/390/480/570 (+120% of your physical power)
Cooldown: 90s

Ares summary

There are two ideas. One is a full rework, and one is a new ultimate.

Idea 1: Rework

Instead of a sword, Ares will carry a spear. He would still have his shield.

Passive: Warlord

For every allied god within 35 ft of Ares while in Defense Formation (Ares also counts), or for every enemy god with 35 ft of Ares while in Offence Formation, the effectiveness of Ares' abilities are enhanced.

1: Bolster Defenses / Battle Cry

Bolster Defenses (Defense): Ares slams his spear upon his shield, creating a 35 ft aura that grants 15/25/35/45/55 protections to him and all allies within the radius.

Warlord Bonus: +3 protections per allied god

Battle Cry (Offense): Ares lifts his spear in the air and let's an astoundingly loud battle cry, creating a 35 ft aura that grants 2/4/6/8/10% additional magical and physical power to him and all allies within the radius.

Warlord Bonus: 1% additional magical and physical power per enemy god

If Ares switches formation, the aura is cancelled.

Duration: 6s
Cooldown: 13s

2: Intimidate / Skewer

Intimidate (Defnese): Ares charges his spear with the fear of all fallen foes he has killed. Ares then strikes his spear upon the ground, infusing the fear to all enemies in a cone in front of him.

Fear duration: 1s
Cone Size: 60 degrees (I believe and are 90 degrees and is 45)
Cooldown: 15s

Warlord Bonus: +0.1s fear duration per allied god.

Skewer (Offense): Ares extend his spear, which passes through all minions and damaging them. If the spear hits an enemy god, they become chained to ares and rooted and crippled for 1s while taking damage, before being slowed for 2 additional seconds and taking 50% additional damage every 1s. Ares incurs no backpedal penalty for the duration.

Initial Damage & Minion Damage: 35/60/85/100/125 (+25% of your magical power)
Damage (Total): 70/120/170/220/270 (+50% of your magical power)
Slow: 20%
Cooldown: 14/13/12/11/10s

Warlord Bonus: +0.4s cripple per enemy god. (The cripple duration will not increase the total duration. Instead, it will overlap with the slow duration, while the root duration does not incresae whatsoever. For example, let's say there are 3 enemy gods near Ares, so he gets +1.2s of cripple. If he hits the enemy god, they will be crippled and rooted for 1 seconds, and then crippled for additional 1.2 seconds, while being slowed by 20%, and then just slowed for the last 0.8 seconds remaining.)

3: Oppression / Hellfire

Oppression (Defnese): Ares dashes forward a short range very quickly, his shield in front of him, damaging and slightly kncoking back the first enemy (including minions) hit.

Dash Length: Artemis' Traps
Knockback: 15 units
Damage: 50/80/120/160/200 (+35% of your magical power)
Cooldown: 13s

Warlord Bonus: +3 units knockback for per allied god.

Hellfire (Offense) Flames pour forth from Ares' shield, dealing damage every second for 4 seconds while debuffing the enemies' damage. Ares is immune to knockbacks for the duration.

Damage: 15/25/35/45/55 (+10% of your magical power)
Damage (Total): 60/100/140/180/220 (+40% of your magical power)
Damage Reduction: 4/8/12/16/20%
Damage Reduction Duration: 1s (refreshed per tick)
Cooldown: 12s

Warlord Bonus: 2% damage reduction per enemy god.

Ultimate: Change Formation

Ares changes formation.

Defense Formation: 2/4/6/8/10% of all damage allied gods within 35 ft of Ares take from enemy gods is transferred to Ares (pre-mitigated) and then mitigated. If Ares drops below 15% health, this effect is stopped.

Warlord Bonus: 1% damage transference per allied god.

Offense Formation: Ares reduces the protection of all enemy gods within 35 ft of him by 4/8/12/16/20.

Warlord Bonus: +3 protections reduction per enemy god.

Now, this Ares is all about team fighting. He keeps his Shackles > Searing Flesh combo, but it's now Skewer > Hellfire.

Because in war, you are either on the offense or on the defense, giving him stances seemed like a new, refreshing and fitting direction.

His passive is just straight forward. When you are near allies while in Defnese Formation, you are more effective. When you are near enemies while in Offense Formation, you are more effective.

His 1 is the old Bolster Defenses, but with an offensive parallel.

His 2 is his core peel/cc in Defense Formation, and in Offense Formation, it's his aggressive playstyle. It somewhat keeps and preserves his old gameplay of Shackles, but now, it's a just a single-target ability with a lower cooldown and more supportive aspects, and of course, with less damage, because after all, he is a guardian.

His 3 in Defense Formation is like a mini peel which is meant to suppress enemy attacks and aggression. And it cannot really be used offensively, so that you could blink behind enemy lines to pull someone towards your team like does with his because 15 units is a very, very short range, and the Warlord bonus will not be effective because it is according to how many allies are near you, and if you are planning to be behind your enemies, chances are, your allies won't be there too. In Offense Formation, Hellfire is basically Searing Flesh, just with a supportive aspect, instead of being just damage. It now reduces the enemies' damage, so that it could actually help your team.

His ultimate is also like Warlord, in the sense that the effects it grants fit his formation and support his allies accordingly. Absorbing some of the damage from your team mates seems right for a someone who wants to defend their allies, and reducing the enemies' protections seems right for someone who wants to increase the damage their allies are dealing.

Idea 2: Ultimate Change

Ultimate: Enrage

Ares enrages all enemies within the area. Enemies hit will have their camera locked on Ares, will not be able to attack and cast abilities on a target other than Ares and will not be able to move other than towards Ares. Ares gains damage reflection for the duration.

Radius: 30
Enrage Duration: 2s
Damage Reflection: 23/26/29/32/35%.
Cooldown: 90s

Being the God of War, it seems fitting that Ares would encourage fight, battles, wars. So, being able to prevent enemies from attacking a target other than Ares fits his lore as well as the role of a Guardian. It's like a semi-taunt. Additionally, the damage reflection also represents Ares' joy and bloodlust out of war, and provides this ability's damage.

Buffs / Nerfs

Tweaks

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Arachne

Arachne has been a problem for a long time. Back in the day her early game was the cheesiest and absurdly powerful, being able to kill any god with 3-4 basic attacks thanks to her poison. But, as always - before and nowadays, her late game was and still is so bad that if you got through to the mid - late game, it's basically a 4v5.

But, with the many nerfs that she has gotten, her early game is now a little bit above average, and still, her mid and late game are stupidly weak.

Problems

Her passive, poison claws, are only useful in the early game, mainly through levels 1-5, and then drops down drastically, because of its poor scaling and the increase in auto attack damage through many items, mainly critical strike chance items.

are also a little bit strong in the early game but fall off too hard in the late game.

is an old skill that is very awkward and weird to use. And late game you will just get bursted down immediately if you jump on people. This needs to go away.

tangled web is okay, though it could use a slight buff.

She is too much reliant on her . This ability has almost zero counterplay, but without it, Arachne has no initiation and looses everything she has.

I think she should stay an early game Assassin. We don't have many early game gods in SMITE, and we could use one. But, try to aim to not create a completely and utterly ******ed early game, which just allows her to live in the enemy jungle because no one can get close to her, and don't make her late game worth nearly nothing.

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Poison Claws: Make it have 5 + level base damage. That should help mitigate some of its issues without causing HiRez to have a heart attack over something resembling innovation.

Broodlings, I think, need only a slight tweak. They're the basis of her scary early game, but drop off to uselessness late game, but NOT because of their damage. Their damage is fine; 2-3 nests do a significant number on squishies. My problem is how ~~any mage~~ any god nowawadays, can kill every one of them with any damaging ability, making them worthless. The broodlings need either higher scaling late game health, or damage reduction against abilities.

Estimates

Drain Life is fine in concept - if the game was like that Smite wouldn't be the POS it is now - but it's a relic of the past. I suggest a minor rework, replacing this skill with Cocoon.

Cocoon would have 20/19/18/17/16 CD and stun for 1 second, but have a reduction in projectile speed, and lose the ability to go through walls. This will be her only hard CC in her basic kit, and is her substitute for her gap closer. I still intend for her lack of mobility to be a weakness.

Skill 3 will also get a slight rework, reducing the slow to 25/30/35/40/45%, but increasing her own speed and the speed of her spiderlings by the same amount. General mobility is always nice, and rather necessary to escape and all that.

Her ultimate could be a rework of Drain Life, where Arachne suppresses a target within melee range for 1/1,25/1.5/1.75/2.0 seconds, dealing X damage over the time period and healing for (all/none/some) of the damage dealt (or a separate amount not tied to damage dealt). However, what makes this skill deserving of a 90 second cooldown is her ability to move the target while they are suppressed.

Late game, her ult still won't be too great, being a single target ability and such. But she'll make a good semi-support in teamfights, but her damage should still definitely fall off.

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Note:
I try to help with the things I know. Sometimes I can't think of something quick for a change or some sort of new skill.

wrote:

maybe improve the scaling on it an bit or just change it too something more usefull

wrote:

are also a little bit strong in the early game but fall off too hard in the late game.

This is an ability she is so reliant on for the slow. (the webs don't do enough). this is an ability that shouldn't be changed too something else. For it too be more viable late game it needs a buff

wrote:

is an old skill that is very awkward and weird to use. And late game you will just get bursted down immediately if you jump on people. This needs to go away.

this ability should be changed too something else. It doesn't do any damage too even heal you. before you finished your dead. It should be changed too something else or it needs too get something like reduced damage when in use.

wrote:

tangled web is okay, though it could use a slight buff.

Adding the cripple on it seems a good plan (don't know how that played)

wrote:

She is too much reliant on her . This ability has almost zero counterplay, but without it, Arachne has no initiation and looses everything she has.

jup without this someone can easily back up or it's getting countered by magi's blessing and she can't get close enough. (the webs are worthless because someone will just use their escape). I only have no idea how too change it for a good ult. IMO they should change the ult too a ability so she has a gap closer (reducing damage and the through walls thing).

wrote:

I think she should stay an early game Assassin. We don't have many early game gods in SMITE, and we could use one. But, try to aim to not create a completely and utterly ******ed early game, which just allows her to live in the enemy jungle because no one can get close to her, and don't make her late game worth nearly nothing.

I totally agree she needs to be early game. I don't think she needs so many buffs early but more for her late (scaling the skills in some sort it's better for late).

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wrote:

Special Delivery should not be able to go through minions.

Radius should be decreased (perhaps to the size of He Bo's Waterspout?)

I just want old Guan Yu back, or at least his old ultimate.

Towers and Phoenixes should not register them as actual minions

Cat Call

The cats should be "leashed" to Bastet, or at least have a certain distance where they'll stop chasing enemies.

uhm we are now currently discussing (see rules and stuff)

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subzero quote

wrote:

Estimates

Do you intend on keeping the physical power scaling on Poison Claws? or do you intend on granting her more than just "+1 * level" bonus for the poison?

I have a solution for Broodlings. Simply reduce the damage they take from AoE sources. if they were to take, I dunno, maybe 50% damage from all AoE sources instead of 100%, then you'll need more than a single or kill 10 little spiders.

For the new Cocoon, I think a projectile speed of about Ullr's Thrown Axe would be appropriate. I would also reduce the width slightly. I suppose that with the new projectile speed, which counts for both the cast and the pull after the hit, you could actually use Beads while being pulled, so it'll have some counterplay.

The new ultimate idea seems a bit, I dunno. Early game, I don't see it doing much. 1s in which you control the target and damage it? would seem to do the same job, minus the heal. Maybe make it apply full poison, or deal additional overtime damage and refresh the Poison Claws. I wish they hadn't released Serqet. If the duration would be 1.6/1.7/1.8/1.9/2s, it would be more effective early game, and for an early game Assassin, that's all she really needs.

wrote:

Adding the cripple on it seems a good plan (don't know how that played)

Adding a cripple on tangled web would simply make it too powerful. It has a wide area and is easily deployed with a long range. It's a nigh-guaranteed gank and would do too much.

Increasing her movement speed as well as her spiders' seems a more fitting.

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wrote:

Do you intend on keeping the physical power scaling on Poison Claws? or do you intend on granting her more than just "+1 * level" bonus for the poison?

Yes.

wrote:

I have a solution for Broodlings. Simply reduce the damage they take from AoE sources. if they were to take, I dunno, maybe 50% damage from all AoE sources instead of 100%, then you'll need more than a single or kill 10 little spiders.

Uh, that's pretty much what I said...

wrote:

For the new Cocoon, I think a projectile speed of about Ullr's Thrown Axe would be appropriate. I would also reduce the width slightly. I suppose that with the new projectile speed, which counts for both the cast and the pull after the hit, you could actually use Beads while being pulled, so it'll have some counterplay.

Perfection.

wrote:

The new ultimate idea seems a bit, I dunno. Early game, I don't see it doing much. 1s in which you control the target and damage it? would seem to do the same job, minus the heal. Maybe make it apply full poison, or deal additional overtime damage and refresh the Poison Claws. I wish they hadn't released Serqet. If the duration would be 1.6/1.7/1.8/1.9/2s, it would be more effective early game, and for an early game Assassin, that's all she really needs.

Better idea, make it 1.5 seconds flat. On top of the instant poison, that's a good idea. You can also make it pretty damaging, if you like. Maybe 200/300/400/500/600 (+100% of your physical power) as damage, and 100% of damage dealt is healed. That should encourage building raw power and penetration over crits, and it makes her a pretty scary duelist. Late game, it won't deal as much damage, but the suppression itself will grant it tons of utility.

Edit: Make that 70/100/130/160/190 damage (+40% of your physical power) every 0.5 seconds, for 1.5 seconds.

Editedit: I really don't want to make a CC that can't be beads'd more than 1.5 seconds.

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wrote:

Do you intend on keeping the physical power scaling on Poison Claws? or do you intend on granting her more than just "+1 * level" bonus for the poison?
Yes.

wrote:

Yes.

You troll... towards which sentence is the "yes" referred?

wrote:

Uh, that's pretty much what I said...

Woops, didn't see that last bit of your paragraph.

wrote:

Agreed.

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Yes, keep the physical power contributions.

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One more thing: It needs to be able to grab minions.

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Balancing Discussion: The Real Deal

poison claws

tangled web

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