| Forum » General Discussion » Dissecting Smite #1: Oversexualization, Stereotyping, Double-Standards, and Other Misogyny in Smite 305 posts - page 13 of 31 |
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never forget dawngate and never forgive EA. Freia will hunt them for eternity.
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 All4Games Distinguished (54) Posts: 2513 View My Blog |
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 _angrytoast Memorable (14) Posts: 204 View My Blog |
 Zanestorm Remarkable (9) Posts: 166 |
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never forget dawngate and never forgive EA. Freia will hunt them for eternity.
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All4Games Distinguished (54) Posts: 2513 View My Blog |
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Zanestorm, I will try to be as polite as I can, but your attitude irritates me.
Zanestorm
wrote:
Warning: Long-*** post. Some swearing and crass language. TL;DR - You cannot prove that video games cause real-world sexism. There's nothing wrong with sex or sexualisation. Women are allowed to be sexy if they wish, and are allowed to represent themselves as they choose. Hi-rez is allowed to represent women and men as they choose, as long as it fits the lore in some way. This is not an issue at all. There is a difference between reality and video games. There is a difference between women and Goddesses. I come back to this. I almost fell off my chair, 10/10 sub you do entertain. Lets get to business. To preface this I'm a genuine Eclectic Pagan, so I know one hell of a lot more than most people about Ancient Gods and Goddesses. I'm also an undergraduate History student that studies Modern and Ancient History, as well as some Archaeology topics [specifically Religion and Ritual.] Ah, so we open with the traditional insults and boasting. Always lovely. I'm going to ignore the tl;dr for now, until I finish with the rest of your essay. Zanestorm
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The main premise of your argument is that Smite does not treat women well. As you don't mention men in this, one can assume that you implicitly believe the women are specifically being represented worse then men comparatively. Linked to this, you must naturally believe there is some real-world implication to how this game represents women in terms of equality, as that is a one of the arguments you use. There is a strongly underlying ideological bias in what you've said, as it's pretty clear you're a Feminist of some description.
Are you ****ing kidding me? "Don't mention men in this?" This entire post is about how Smite treats women. Second, I do mention men, to compare them to how the goddesses are portrayed. Third, "bias?" Is this like "opinion," now? Obviously, everyone is biased toward their own opinion. I could call this entire post invalid since you're so obviously blinded by your bias against me. But I won't. I have a feeling there is going to be a LOT of psuedo-intellectual ******** coming my way. Zanestorm
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Over-sexualisation happens to both men and women in the real world and in video games. This is a fact.
You have got to be kidding me. When does oversexualization happen to men? When? Can you name one example? Zanestorm
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Is either a part of a broader social issue? No. Video games are their own culture, in which it is most often explicitly made clear that X video game does not represent reality in any way, even when parallels are drawn.
You are kidding me, right? "Video games are their own culture, in which it is most often explicitly made clear that X video game does not represent reality in any way, even when parallels are drawn." No, they are not. There are indeed subcultures, like wine culture, anime culture, etc. But each and every one of them links back to our overall culture, because EVERYTHING IS A PART OF OUR CULTURE. I don't think you understand what the word culture means. It's literally everything humanity has that can't be bred into people. It's our arts, our sciences, our philosophy, our entertainment. Everything is connected. You're so caught up in your own pretentious arguments that you have no idea what you're talking about. A parallel is a correlation, which indicates a relationship between the two. There is indeed a relationship between subcultures and reality. How is this not obvious? First example: Comic books. Remember when Superman literally locked Lois Lane in a giant plastic bubble to kept safe? And when she got him to release her, she soon begged to be put back, that Superman was right?
Will that **** go by today? No, it won't. as we can see by Lois Lane in Man of Steel.
What about another example? What about animated film? Disney ALWAYS gets Damsels in Distress. It was pretty much their trademark. And now, after the feminist movement, after decades of societal progress, we get Frozen, Tangled, and Brave. What about actual video games? I'll put ANOTHER example. Blizzard used to be like Smite. Now, we get Overwatch, less skimpier outfits, etc. In all these examples, they are changing, because the times are changing. CULTURE IS CHANGING, and they change to reflect more modern values. Do NOT try to ******** me, Zanestorm, by saying video game culture has nothing to do with real life, because you just proved to me that you have NO idea what you're talking about. Seriously, I can keep going on. If ANYONE reading this doubts that video game culture is entirely separate from real life, I can list TONS of examples - and not just on feminism, either. Zanestorm
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Reality is obviously different by it's nature, so basing your argument that video games are bad from irrelevant real-world examples was a poor place to start.
So no, it was NOT a poor place to start, because like I said and proved with examples (unlike your empty statements), culture is culture. It doesn't matter if its video games or comic books or art or music, it all is a reflection of our overall culture. "Reality is obviously different by its nature." Nice job stating the obvious. What, will you next say that fiction isn't real? Zanestorm
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Focusing these examples only on women was also misguided, as it's demonstrably true that men also face double standards in many regards, as well as legal discrimination in the Western world. [But that isn't relevant here, it's just a by-product of the irrelevance of your own argument in this section.]
Nice job smacking another "irrelevant argument" insult, and blaming your own tangent on me. Seriously, look at this: He goes off an a tangent, and has the temerity to blame it "as a by-product on your own irrelevance." Holy ****, you're an *******. Screw politeness, you're being a ****. Men face double standards? Perhaps. But firstly, men face much LESS double standard sexism ********, if any. Second, this is about Smite. Sexism in context of SMSmiteTE. Men do not face double standards in Smite, and I can think literally everyone else would agree with me. Third, Jesus Christ, are you one of those "men's rights" people? I don't care if men get a tiny bit of sexism, it is NOTHING, NOTHING compared to the ******** women have to go through in today's society. Zanestorm
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There has not been a single statistically valid study that has linked video games to any real-world changes in worldview or perceptions. Just as video games do not make us violent, they do not make us sexist. They do not affect our reality at all, beyond our own time. Unless you have Academic evidence to the contrary, which I can bluntly tell you does not exist, then you cannot implicitly conclude that if X game is sexist, it will perpetuate or lead to sexism in reality. You have no basis for this implicit conclusion.
See this link? It's the wikipedia article on Internalized Sexism. I linked to it before. The point is, if you click it, you'll see ****ing thirty-two citations on it. It also mentions things like television, cinema, and other media. Do NOT ******** me. Do NOT lie to my ****ing face. Internalized sexism is a thing. Here are more links. https://finallyfeminism101.wordpress.com/2007/10/20/internalized-sexism/ http://www.huffingtonpost.com/soraya-chemaly/why-some-women-are-sexist_b_1342287.html http://everydayfeminism.com/2014/02/*****-internalized-sexism/ http://borderhouseblog.com/?p=791 http://www.prevention.com/mind-body/emotional-health/both-women-and-men-display-attitudes-benevolent-sexism Literally, take five ****ing seconds to google Internalized Sexism. It. Is. A. Thing. Shoving your fingers in your ears and yelling, "No it's not! No it's not!" Won't change how I have the facts on my side, how I actually have evidence, while you just have your word. Zanestorm
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Your argument here is that Smite over sexualises it's Goddesses comparative to other games in the same genre. The difference is that Smite draws its inspiration from the real world. You'd clearly be surprised to realize the sheer volume of deities that have been represented in a sexual manner, even when not linked to sex at all. Indeed, most Ancient beliefs held that the deities could take whichever form they wished, so artistically they could be presented as whatever the artist felt the deity represented, which is subjective in nature.
Firstly, you completely ignore how Smite ignores lore for the gods and not for the goddesses. What difference does it make that Smite draws from the real world? HiRez puts PLENTY of artistic license on the game anyway. As I mentioned in the OP, it's hypocritical to not show Zeus as a raging man **** when Freya remains "faithful" to the lore by being practically naked. Second, don't patronize me about what was sexualized and what wasn't. Was Athena sexualized? What about Chang'e? Hmm? Third, no, you do NOT draw a god or goddess however you please. Athena is always drawn as a women, typically with Aegis and ALWAYS a Helmet. Thor is ALWAYS a bulky man with a hammer. Fourth, your last statement is basically "artistic license, *****!" And I ALREADY ADDRESSED THAT, WHEN I MENTIONED HIREZ' HYPOCRISY IN ALTERING GODS TO LOOK BADASS AND DIGNIFIED, WHILE GODDESSES LOOK LIKE STRIPPERS! Zanestorm
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Moreover, sexualisation itself is subjective in nature. TMI: I'm gay, so I don't find any of the female Goddesses to be sexual in nature at all.
I forgot to mention that I'm a lesbian with two dads, who already got her PHD in Mythological Studies. Call me Dr. Subzero, now. Zanestorm
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But beyond that, you're assuming that all straight males have the exact same preferences and will find each Goddess sexy, which simply isn't true at all. Sexuality and preference is far more diverse than you're presenting it, which is a shame as I'd expect more for someone claiming to support equality.
I don't care if most men like giant breasts versus thighs or whatever. It doesn't matter what specific fetish each goddess embodies. The real matter is how they are sexualized in the first place! Unless you're saying I didn't represent men properly by not acknowledging people who are turned off by clothes! Do you have any idea how ridiculous you sound? Zanestorm
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What "some women" want is irrelevant. Female deities are not "some women" you disrespectful ****.
I'm being disrespectful to...who, exactly? I'm GIVING respect to women. Are you saying I offended Athena by saying she shouldn't be wearing a breast plate? Who the **** am I disrespecting? Oh, and you're an idiot. You said that "what "some women" want is irrelevant." Guys, take a moment to digest this. I'll do the dissecting. "Some women" refer to the portion of women who don't want to be dressed sexy ALL THE TIME. Which is a LOT, and in fact, the MAJORITY, of women. MOST women don't want to be dressed practically naked all the time, and especially when fighting. I used "some women" as a binary catch-all phrase, referring to the women who DON'T want to look naked all the time. Which means that the portion of women that Zanestorm thinks are "relevant" are the women who DO want to look naked all the time - after all, everyone who thinks the opposite is "irrelevant." I repeat: The only women that Zanestorm considers relevant are the ones who want to be naked all the time. The only women that Zanestorm considers relevant are the ones who want to be naked all the time. The only women that Zanestorm considers relevant are the ones who want to be naked all the time. It's right there. Reread this section if you don't believe me. Zanestorm
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I actually reeled when I realized YOU ARE COMPARING ALL POWERFUL FEMALE DEITIES TO MODERN WOMEN. WTF. Like either you have an incredibly low expectation of deities or a ridiculously high expectation for modern women. Either way, that is the most ridiculous thing I've read this month. Grats. Female deities are female [this is debatable - Theological debates over whether deities are human or even gendered, or simply represent themselves / we represent them that way] that is literally the only link between modern women and female deities. They aren't to be interchanged - they are entirely seperate. To steal tumblr speak - #triggered yo.
Gods aren't aliens. They aren't Chutullu. Gods are created by humans. They're giving human traits, described with human terms, hell, MOST OF THEM LOOK HUMAN AND ACT HUMAN! It's called anthropomorphism. The act of describing an animal, object, or god in human terms. We automatically give human traits to things because we can only describe things by comparing them to natural phenomena. And in most cases, we describe PEOPLE like PEOPLE. "deities are human or even gendered, or simply represent themselves / we represent them that way] that is literally the only link between modern women and female deities." You literally just said that gender is the only link between a goddess and a human. I...what can I say? It dissects itself. Zanestorm just said that gods are basically aliens from another dimension with a human skin. That they have NO link to humanity aside from just LOOKING like they have genders. Just...wow. I can compare gods and humans all I want, because gods are culture. Worship is a part of human culture. And like literally everything else in the world, they reflect the culture of the times. Gods had sex with humans, felt desire, pain, sorrow, joy, like humans, are sentient, like humans, can be smart or stupid, like humans, are wildly diverse, like humans, can be ****s, like humans, etc. I'll give the ultimate example: Morality. This thread links humans and gods like nothing else. From the Judaic God himself giving morality to humans, to Zeus being the god of law and governance, to Hades' judgement of souls, to Buddhism's Middle way, to Tyr bringing laws to man. Gods are JUST LIKE HUMANS, except for the immortality and powers. I'm just going to assume that you'll give a smug and/or insulting comment every paragraph. Zanestorm
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'If every single goddess wants to look like a bedroom roleplaying scenario, not great.' FML. These are video game characters sub, not conscious women. The female deities themselves have not made that choice.
Just like how humans reflected their culture onto their gods, HiRez is reflecting their culture in their work, and in their gods and goddesses. So yeah, that's the connection between humans and gods. And here's the thing. Even IF you're right, and gods have no connection to humanity, why the **** would they make the choice to be naked all the time? Would an alien, with no idea of human society, culture, morals, etc, willingly be exposed all the time? From the way you speak, gods wouldn't even have a concept of nudity. Too bad you're wrong, because gods clearly understand weapons and armor, as we can see in the hundreds of examples in mythology today. Which means that gods, who at the very least, understand the concept of armor, should not be dressed naked all the time, especially in combat. Zanestorm
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But if they had, who the hell are you to put a quota on how many women would be allowed to do X, just because it doesn't fit your narrative? Let alone dictating how female GODDESSES should represent themselves. Sounds like your arguing to take agency away, rather than give it.
Ah, I can feel the fake outrage. You know, ever hear of the term, Social Justice Warrior, in an ironic sense? Because right now, you sound every bit like them. I don't think you understand what dictate means. Or choice. HiRez DIDN'T GIVE THEM A CHOICE. That's why a problem is the lack of DIVERSITY. I want to give them MORE DIVERSITY. Which means MORE CHOICE. If I wanted to dress them all in habits, then yes, I would be dictating things and removing choice. I would be just as bad as HiRez. But I'm not. I'm saying that some gods want to be sexy, some don't, and there's room for everybody, and yet, 95% of the goddesses dress like they want to be sexy. You seem to be implying that all goddesses WANT to be dressed like they are now. Like they choose to do so. That I'm only trampling on their rights by suggesting that they should be dressed differently. Not all differently, not all into a specific outfit, but simply differently. Just...what is wrong with you? You're twisting my words into ways that don't even make sense. Are you so blinded by your hate that you can't even see reason? Zanestorm
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'Meanwhile, 90% of goddesses dress like they want to look sexy. The only ones to not do that aren't legal, or are drastic outliers. While the men are wearing actual armor and stuff, the women are wearing literal ribbons and thongs.' & "The lore!"
Most, if not all Goddesses have been represented in a sexual way at some point by somebody. Equally, many people don't view the Goddesses as sexual. I'm referring to both IRL and in Smite. There's plenty of male characters that - when the lore fits - are dressed in a more sexy way - like Apollo, which you mentioned, Hercules, Chaac ect. It's simply the case that lore and artistic representations of females from the Pantheons Hi-rez have drawn from can be done in a sexy way, because traditionally many Goddesses were represented in that way. I guess because someone wrote a fanfic where Athena has an orgy with the entire pantheon, that she should be written as an absolute ****, right? Also, you have no idea what you are talking about. Look at the Greek pantheon alone. Hera, Artemis, Athena, Demeter, Hestia. Yes, these goddesses are drawn as beautiful, but there is a difference between sexualizing and beautifying someone. Also, you have no idea what you are talking about, do you? Hercules is dressed more than he actually looks like in Lore. Chaac actually looks like a Mayan warrior. And you're equating that to how Athena wears a ******** boob plate and how Awilix looks like a stripper and jiggles roughly every second. And I repeat myself yet again: HiRez makes goddesses look sexy due to artistic license, just like how some gods AREN'T sexualized with artistic license, like Loki or Zeus. That doesn't make their hypocrisy any less wrong, nor does it excuse it. Zanestorm
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I would actually LOVE to see more sexualised males [all of the ****!] One of my favourite characters is Apollo for that reason. Equally I'd love to see more elegant or well-dressed females, which is one of the reasons Chang'e is another of my mains. But I would NOT love for Hi-rez to break from lore just to cave to thought police. I hate the fact that more males AREN'T sexualised in Smite, because by rights they absolutely should be. Why should they reduce sexualisation - when as you point out many deities have been represented as naked? Should it not then be that Hi-rez should simply be adding more sexualised male Gods to balance things out?
Two points. One: You completely ignore the hypocricy of diversity in gods while there is a complete lack of it in goddesses. As well as the hypocricy of changing gods with artistic license to be strong and bold and badass while goddesses are always sexualized with it. Second point: I ALREADY TALKED ABOUT THE LORE. SEVERAL BILLION TIMES, IT SEEMS. READ. IT. Unlike you, I actually proved my point with pictures, while you go on and rant about how Chang'e/Athena/w-e was sexualized. Zanestorm
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But linked to this, exactly what the hell is wrong with male or females being presented as sexy? Want to know a fact? You're alive because of sex. Want to know another? Pretty much everybody on earth is alive because of sex. That's alot of sex. Sex isn't wrong or demonic, it's entirely natural. So to is sexualisation, as humans are a sexual species. Representing males OR females as sexual is not inherently evil, or part of some evil plot to weaken X gender.
You literally ignored the part of the OP where I said sexualization, if in moderation, is okay. Here, I'll get it for you. Subzero008
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I need to say something: Sexualization, if not taken to excess, is fine. Yes, other MOBAs sexualize its female characters, too. But there's a difference between making someone look attractive, and looking like something out of a sexual fantasy.
Which is why I called the problem OVERSexualization, not SEXUALIZATION, as I showed IN THE DAMN TITLE OF THE THREAD. You seem to think that sexualization equals stripper. That beauty and godliness and divinity equals stripper - only for females, that is. That literally dissects itself. Zanestorm
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"Sex Sells"
That's a fact. Sex does indeed sell - look at the porn industry. *rolls eyes* And when did I dispute that? Zanestorm
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"Here's a question: Does HiRez care about money more than treating women like actual ****ing human beings, or are they just misogynistic *******s?"
The GODDESSES in Smite ARE PIXELS. THEY ARE NOT REAL WOMEN. Hi-rez is not treating women like anything, because there are no real women in Smite. Indeed by definition there never will be, because not only is this a game, it's a game about DEITIES. Women AREN'T deities. Sorry to break it to you. They're human, like males. Misogyny has **** all to do with this, because real women are not involved or impacted in any way by the female representation of DEITIES IN A VIDEO GAME that they probably don't even know exist. Guys. How many times do I have to say it by now? It's obvious that Smite is not real life. That does not mean it doesn't have an effect on real life. I'll go back to the movie example. Let's say I make a film where a women werewolf goes on a murderous rampage once a month. And that only women can be werewolves. And that the wereworlf seduces her targets with her breasts when not eating them. That is sexist. And yet, Zanestorm say it's not sexist at all, because it's all fictional and has no relevance to real life. Because WOMEN AREN'T WEREWOLVES AND THAT WEREWOLVES DON'T EXIST, GUYS. The mirror of culture works both ways. Just like how humanity influences culture, we can influence humanity by manipulating culture. This is a FACT - you may have heard of propaganda. Zanestorm
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"Gods are supposed to be beautiful"
Gods are the desirability of man kind. You're literally disillusional if you think most Gods AREN'T represented as beautiful, period. Beautiful is a desirable human trait. Deities frequently represent desirable human traits. Ergo many Deities naturally represent beauty. It's nothing to do with being shallow, it is an Archaeological and Religious observation based on the fact that the majority of deities are ****ing gorgeous. Beauty, desire, they aren't synonymous with Sex. Just like how Athena is beautiful, just like how Artemis is beautiful, you don't have to sexualize someone to make them beautiful or desirable. This isn't a hard concept to understand, but you refuse to acknowledge it. I'll do it for you.
Monica Bellucci is widely considered to be one of the most beautiful women in the world. Does she look like a stripper? Is she sexualized here? Answer: no. Zanestorm
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"Second, you can make someone look beautiful without sexualizing them, idiot. You can make someone look attractive without giving them giant breasts and putting them in a metal bra and thong."
Completely agree. Chang'e is beautiful, but she isn't sexualised. But what chang'e commonly represents isn't sexuality at all, she's a Goddess of dance. Elegance is her claim to fame, and Hi-rez did a fantastic job of getting that through in her model and abilities. But many female deities are BOTH beautiful and sexual, and there is an obvious link between the two [desirability.] Denying that is foolhardy and bluntly wrong. "You just want them to be ugly!" I agree with you, that is a stupid argument. Although if a female deity is added to the game that in lore is ugly, I'd like her to be represented that way. A good example is dark Hel, actually. Variety is the spice of life, so I'd actually be quite happy if Hi-rez added heavier, uglier and more brutish female deities, it's simply a struggle to imagine where they'd find the source material for it. It was YOU who said that I didn't want them to beautiful, that I was denying sexuality, that I was delusional for thinking they weren't beautiful. You literally read the "YOU JUST WANT THEM TO BE UGLY!" post, and yet did not process a word of it. It takes a certain kind of person to do that. Zanestorm
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"It's just Fanservice, like any other Game!"
> "Smite goes so over the top with their misogyny" Misogyny is 'Dislike of, contempt for, or ingrained prejudice against women' [Oxford dictionary] You have presented no evidence that Hi-rez has a dislike of, contempt for, or prejudice against women. If anything, presenting the female form as attractive and desirable would suggest a love of women, not a hatred. Moreover - again - This as pixels, not real women. There is no link between video games and real-life sexism. Actually, there is also no real link between 21st Century Sexual Liberty and misogyny either. Firstly, the problem is how you see making all the goddesses strippers as respectful and loving. Guys. Let this hit you. He says that Smite making all of its goddesses oversexualized is a good thing. Second point. You just read the dictionary definition, but call misogyny "hatred." How many times to I have to explain that Smite constantly drawing women as strippers is a form of prejudice, stereotyping, and discrimination? Final point: There is no real link between the two? The entire point of every single feminism movement was to fight misogyny and sexism. And there is no real link between the two? Is this real life? Zanestorm
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"Stereotyping"
Happens in every game, including smite, to both genders. You can **** right off if you think the male deities aren't stereotyped and over-simplified to all ****, because they absolutely are. Does Stereotyping suck? Yes. But it isn't appropriate to go into a long back story in the MOBA genre, so it's commonly done. Each deity has a memorable gimmick, one thing that makes them stand out and be remembered, because really thats all the flexibility a MOBA actually offers in terms of story-telling. Yes, some gods are stereotyped. But not almost all of them, like the goddesses. So stop talking about what you don't understand. Guys, remember the actual list of stereotyped that I compiled? Does Zanestorm have such a list? Zanestorm
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Also, sorry hun, women are ****ing allowed to enjoy cooking, baking, sewing, being feminine and all that jazz. Again, who the **** are you to tell women they're less valuable because they fit a stereotype, you misogynistic fool. IRL women CHOOSE what they want to do, regardless of what you think about it. OFC, these pixels aren't women, but their gimmicks fit their real-world lore in some way, even if its played on as a joke.
As usual, Zanestorm has declined me the courtesy of actually reading my ****ing post instead of glancing at the title and the first three sentences. Subzero008
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Normally, this might be alright. It's okay to have a cookie joke here and there. Nothing in excess, or deficit.
But when you get every single freaking goddess as one sort of stereotype or another...it crosses a line. It becomes unacceptable. Just like the oversaturation of sexiness that I ranted about previously. You call me a misogynist. Because I think that having almost every single goddess embodying a stereotype is a bad thing. It dissects itself, guys. You just need to read it in a easy to read format, and not be intimidated by the wall of text. I dissect terrible fanfics, Zanestorm's *****torm is nothing. Subzero008
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"Distribution"
WOMEN ARE OVER-SEXUALISED, HI-REZ HATES WOMEN! ... Further down THERE ARE NOT ENOUGH WOMEN! Here's an idea. Maybe Hi-rez aren't sexists, and they literally don't care about the perceived gender of the deity. It's simply how the cards have fallen. It could be a coincidence, but looking at every other example of sexism I listed...I'd say it's more of a pattern. Zanestorm
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Suitability
You pointed out further up that many deities fought and walked around NAKED. They're deities. Do you think they give a single **** about suitability? By all accounts, hi-rez is incredibly generous in the clothing department on all deities across the board, as most of them were indeed naked, when fighting and otherwise. Terribly generous, he says. Because Athena fought in a bra, not a boob plate. Because Chang'e had DD breasts, not C. And you missed the entire point of that section, because you didn't read all of it. The point was that if Mercury can be dressed sensibly and not fight naked, so can Kali, or Awilix, or Neith. Third, don't take those pictures out of context. I used them to point out how much artistic license that HiRez took while making the gods, in comparison to the goddesses. Finally, I'll point out that there are some gods who fought naked and some gods who did it only some of the time and some gods who always fought armored. This is called diversity, Zanestorm. Gods have it, goddesses don't. Zanestorm
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"Weapons and armor are treated as equally important, and together they let mortals fight off gods"
1) This is not common across all pantheons 2) This is not common across all cultures that these deities are taken from 3) Most of the time these weapons were created by the deities themselves, and so it was one of the only items that could be used to effectively slay a deity. You once again ignore logic. Yes, these weapons and armor are god-created. In any case, it's useful for fighting gods. You cannot dispute that point. As for the others, you're an idiot. Every single culture in the world has some kind of weapon and some kind of protection. It could be something like a lion skin or a bola, to swords and helmets. Don't believe me? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_mythological_objects Remember, guys, I actually give proof. Zanestorm just makes wildly inaccurate statements as he pleases. Zanestorm
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"Second, if they don't need armor, they wouldn't ****ing wear the "armor" they have on, because armor is clunky and heavy."
THEY'RE ****ING GODS. DO YOU THINK THEY GIVE A **** ABOUT HOW HEAVY SOMETHING IS? **** ME. IF THEY CAN FIGHT NAKED, I'M PRETTY SURE THEY CAN FIGHT IN ANYTHING. If gods literally did not care about weight, they'd have literally infinite strength. Atlas wouldn't have to lift up the sky, since Mercury could have done it for him. Since the only logical explanation is that gods DO have limited strength, and that even the absurdly lacking "armor" Athena has on would, in fact make a difference. And being the smart wisdom goddess she is, if she did need armor, she'd put on a real breastplate - and did, as I showed in multiple pictures, and if she didn't, she's just take that stupid, useless armor that only adds dead weight, off. Zanestorm
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"Examples of Improvement"
"Equality is what it should be like. Just like how some men in Smite wear heavy armor, some won't, some don't care, and yes, some embrace their sexiness, the same can and should apply to women as well." You literally just debunked your entire ****ing OP by pointing out that women should absolutely have the autonomy to represent themselves however they choose, equally so Hi-rez should have the autonomy to do so to. Equality is a state of things being equal. Where gods and goddesses can BOTH dress as they please, and BOTH have diverse attire and personalities. HiRez making all the goddesses dress like strippers is NOT equality, when men are dressed more diversely. The problem is, you seem to think that most women would CHOOSE to dress like strippers. That goddesses would CHOOSE to dress like the way they are now - or even skimpier. This way, both men and women would be equally free to choose. I can only come to the conclusion that you think that diversity is unnatural for women, or else you wouldn't criticize my statement of wanting women to be more diverse. You call me "a misogynistic fool" for wanting women to look diverse. Something is seriously, seriously wrong with you. Zanestorm
wrote:
Also, deities don't give a single **** about equality. They also aren't human, so stop treating them like they are, just because they're represented as gendered.
See my explanation for how gods are humans are related. Also see how Zanestorm sees gods as aliens. Gods apparently have the same standards of beauty (from all the mortal-****ing), justice (common theme of judgement in the afterlife), and even combat prowess (how the best mortals can fight the best gods and sometimes win), etc, as humans do, but according to Zanestorm, they're aliens. "Deities don't give a single **** about equality." Which is why Artemis was the protector of virgins, why Athena, a woman, was seen as the wisest of the gods AND was known for her benevolence toward mortals, why Hera was the queen of Olympus, why Hel gets literally her own dimension, why Chang'e did stuff in lore against her husband's wishes, etc etc. Newsflash: Gods cared about equality. Again, I give examples, Zanestorm doesn't. Zanestorm
wrote:
"I'm too lazy to find a picture I like for every single goddess."
I don't give a **** about what you like. Your infringing on freedom of expression and artistic freedom because YOU take issue with sexy female deities. That's your problem, not Hi-rez's and not ours. I'm suggesting that HiRez draws women as more diverse, and I'm apparently trampling on their rights. Guys. It dissects itself. Zanestorm
wrote:
"Internalized Sexism"
"the biggest problem is in the little things." I think you'll find you just contradicted yourself. Large problems are more important than small niggles that aren't even problems. Welcome to the real world. Interesting. Isn't a Happily Ever After after defeating the Giant Evil Thing a common fantasy trope? Which of us has the best grasp on reality? Zanestorm
wrote:
"The point is, we absorb harmful ideas and associations throughout our lives."
I knew this was coming. As all the way up in my intro, provide me an ACADEMIC study linking representations of people in video games to real-world thoughts. It doesn't exist. You're speaking out of your ***. I have repeatedly given examples of internalized prejudice through both the original post and this post, and other posts on this thread. You just claim that I'm lying, and what you're saying is the gospel truth. Guys. I. Give. Proof. I. Said. "Don't take my word for it." Subzero008
wrote:
You see, humans compartmentalize ideas. We sort things out and put it in a neat folder, and when we pull that folder out, other things come to the forefront of our brain, with it. This subconscious imprinting is called internalization, and yes, it applies to things such as misogyny and racism. And this isn't some theory or idea, it's an established fact. (Don't take my word for it, look it up.)
The point is, we absorb harmful ideas and associations throughout our lives. Even people who know that stereotyping is wrong can't help absorbing the stereotypes that are pervasive in our culture, and in the end, most people we condemn as being misogynistic or racist aren't particularly misogynistic or racist. They're just average people - which says something about the average. This leads to unpleasant things like rape culture or victim blaming or even our tendency to shoot people of color before white people. So, no, it's not harmless. See the links I provided in this very post. And google Internalized Prejudice for yourself. BTW, these links I have lead to more links, of studies, research papers, news articles, interviews, etc. I'll post them again, for good measure https://finallyfeminism101.wordpress.com/2007/10/20/internalized-sexism/ http://www.huffingtonpost.com/soraya-chemaly/why-some-women-are-sexist_b_1342287.html http://everydayfeminism.com/2014/02/*****-internalized-sexism/ http://borderhouseblog.com/?p=791 http://www.prevention.com/mind-body/emotional-health/both-women-and-men-display-attitudes-benevolent-sexism Don't forget the wiki entry. Zanestorm
wrote:
"This leads to unpleasant things like rape culture." Even the biggest anti-rape organisation in America - RAINN - has flatly destroyed the idea that rape culture exists. You want to talk about rape culture? Let's talk about the fact that if a man is raped by a woman in the Western World, that isn't considered Rape despite it accounting for nearly 40% of all rapes. Let's talk about prison rape, which btw the majority of the victims are male. No? Also WTF does a de-bunked by Academics and Anti-rape institutions alike Feminist theory on RAPE have to do with SMITE?
What does it have to do with Smite? I put it as an example of the consequences of internalized sexism, which you said doesn't exist. It's funny how you insist that Video Game Culture is so special and unique and separate, while denying Rape Culture is a thing. Again, I give proof. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_culture Read it. Zanestorm
wrote:
"Video games as a whole are guilty of this, and Smite isn't the biggest problem, but nor is it the smallest. This internalized sexism is why female gamers have problems like GamerGate, and why the industry is so hard to change."
There are plenty of females in gamergate, and plenty of males for that matter too, as far as I know. But if you want to get into technicalities, gays are way, way less represented in video games, and are indeed presented poorly if at all. They also face significantly more real-world discrimination across the board. But that isn't because of video games, nor is sexism, male or female, because of or made worse by video games. Most of the GamerGate ******** came from men, not women. Do I even have to give proof? http://www.cracked.com/blog/7-ways-gamergate-debate-has-made-world-worse/ Read that article, and there are a LOT of links in that article. Also, I already explained the connection between video games and our culture, and how it's a mirror; affecting one affects the other, and can be manipulated as such, knowingly or unknowingly. Zanestorm
wrote:
"Apathy and the Vicious Cycle"
This isn't about Apathy. This is about you making problems where they don't ****ing exist based on your own bigoted ideological viewpoints. Now, let's see the list of insults! Bigot Idiot Biased Irrelevant Misogynist Sexist **** - aka he called me female genitalia Disrespectful Delusional Hypocrite Talking Out of *** Guys. It. Dissects. Itself. Zanestorm
wrote:
"Conclusion"
"The game isn't harmless." Prove it. Literally, prove it. You'd be the first person ever to prove a correlation between video-games and real-world problems. As I've already pointed out, you have no studies to prove this because they don't exist. Guys. I gave links. I didn't make you take it at my word, like Zanestorm - I said explicitly that you could just google search it. I'm giving you guys a chance to not have this be a "he said he said" argument. I'm giving you the chance to find out for yourselves. Please, don't waste it. Zanestorm
wrote:
"I made this to raise awareness of these two issues."
That your a sexist and a bigot that HATES sexuality generally and doesn't understand the difference between women, deities and video games? Duly noted. "End" Proof that deities exist. We're done here. Again, the list of insults: Bigot Idiot Biased Irrelevant Misogynist Sexist **** - aka he called me female genitalia Disrespectful Delusional Hates Sexuality Hypocrite Talking Out of *** Me Not Talking is a Sign of a Merciful God If you guys are brave enough to read all of this, I commend you. And I ask you to read this, and I'm confident that you would agree that Zanestorm is an idiot. Thank you.
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