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Let's Make Patch Notes - Eye of Providence/Hand of the Gods

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Forum » General Discussion » Let's Make Patch Notes - Eye of Providence/Hand of the Gods 29 posts - page 1 of 3

Poll Question:


Selling Actives - Yea or Nay?
Yea
Nay
VOTE
Permalink | Quote | +Rep by Subzero008 » February 4, 2014 12:08pm | Report
These items have the unfortunate problem of being necessary to pretty much everyone. Hand of the Gods due to its pushing power, and Eye of Providence because it simply outclasses all other kinds of warding and puts too much emphasis on the support to ward.

I think all of us can agree that a fix to Hand of the Gods is easy and simple - make it single target, like Brutalize, perhaps with a shorter cooldown and higher damage. Maybe make it slightly ranged?
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Permalink | Quote | +Rep by Subzero008 » February 4, 2014 12:11pm | Report
Now, some of you have suggested outright removing Eye of Providence. I think a step backwards isn't the way to go.

Let's examine why and how Eye of Providence outclasses normal warding.

Eye:
+Allows multiple wards
+Free wards
+Free sentry wards
-No immediate multiple wards

Normal:
+Allows multiple wards
+Immediate multiple wards
-Pricey over time

Why not simply emphasize these differences? Let's say Eye rank 1 was reverted to its first form, 60 second ward, 2 minute cooldown. Then the next rank gives a 120 second ward, 2 minute cooldown. Both of these have an immediate disadvantage over normal wards - the multiple part.

With the nerf to normal sentry warding, Eye has become even more powerful. Let's make one branch of Eye give a 3-minute sentry ward with a 2 minute cooldown, and let the 1 sentry ward restriction apply to that.

As for the other branch, we can make it like our current Eye rank 2; You can place a ward every 60 seconds, each lasting 3 minutes or until killed.

Problem solved?
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Permalink | Quote | +Rep by Sunfall » February 4, 2014 1:17pm | Report
The big reason why Eye of Providence should be removed in it's entirety is because it doesn't teach players proper warding etiquette. Too often players will just assume the tank or support running in the duo lane can do all the warding for them, and never bother to pick up their own wards. It also shoves an unnecessary burden upon tanks who may also be expected to pick up Hand of the Gods as well.

The sole reason Ymir fell out of favor in the competitive scene is because of the HoG+Eye meta, which forces him to give up crucial utility if he wants to pick up Blink to be an effective initiator. Along with Ares, he's the only tank with no gap-closer and being forced into two actives due to his role is not a good thing. It hurts all the tanks, but those two especially. Sure, Ymir could buy normal wards, but if an enemy has Rank 3 Eye, they can counterward you with impunity, causing your money to go to waste.

Warding should be a team responsibility: they reduced the Ward stack limit from 5 to 3 a long time ago specifically to split that burden away from the tanks and supports. Having an active dedicated to planting wards detracts from this, and it only ends up misleading players.
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Permalink | Quote | +Rep by Raventhor » February 4, 2014 1:23pm | Report
It's a shame, because if you look at league of legends, they built in a ward system into every character on a lesser scale, so buying wards is still good (as you can see in literally every competitive match ever), but it lets everyone ward.

There's an almost-similar style thing in smite, but it's bound into a 'summoner spell', that is, active, and no one wants to waste money or active slots on wards.

Just wish I had a decent alternative to it besides straight up copying LoL's system. Everyone competitively will always ward in both regards, but LoL sort of built-in wards into low ELO players, while in Smite, only high ranked players will realize the importance of wards, and won't blame the support for not warding the entire map.
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Permalink | Quote | +Rep by Subzero008 » February 4, 2014 2:15pm | Report
Sunfall wrote:

The big reason why Eye of Providence should be removed in it's entirety is because it doesn't teach players proper warding etiquette. Too often players will just assume the tank or support running in the duo lane can do all the warding for them, and never bother to pick up their own wards. It also shoves an unnecessary burden upon tanks who may also be expected to pick up Hand of the Gods as well.

The sole reason Ymir fell out of favor in the competitive scene is because of the HoG+Eye meta, which forces him to give up crucial utility if he wants to pick up Blink to be an effective initiator. Along with Ares, he's the only tank with no gap-closer and being forced into two actives due to his role is not a good thing. It hurts all the tanks, but those two especially. Sure, Ymir could buy normal wards, but if an enemy has Rank 3 Eye, they can counterward you with impunity, causing your money to go to waste.

Warding should be a team responsibility: they reduced the Ward stack limit from 5 to 3 a long time ago specifically to split that burden away from the tanks and supports. Having an active dedicated to planting wards detracts from this, and it only ends up misleading players.

I notice that most of your reason is because it is misleading toward newer players. Well, that really isn't an issue with the item then, is isn't it?

I mean, newer players copy the meta, and the current meta is here because Eye of Providence is grossly unbalanced. If we fix this problem, aka Eye no longer becomes the meta, problem solved, right?
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Permalink | Quote | +Rep by Subzero008 » February 4, 2014 2:16pm | Report
Raventhor wrote:

It's a shame, because if you look at league of legends, they built in a ward system into every character on a lesser scale, so buying wards is still good (as you can see in literally every competitive match ever), but it lets everyone ward.

There's an almost-similar style thing in smite, but it's bound into a 'summoner spell', that is, active, and no one wants to waste money or active slots on wards.

Just wish I had a decent alternative to it besides straight up copying LoL's system. Everyone competitively will always ward in both regards, but LoL sort of built-in wards into low ELO players, while in Smite, only high ranked players will realize the importance of wards, and won't blame the support for not warding the entire map.

It's a bit frustrating, trying to be original, when League has so many things done right.
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Permalink | Quote | +Rep by Sunfall » February 4, 2014 2:39pm | Report
You honestly believe an item like this can find a balanced place?

It's either going to be too good, or too useless. Take your pick. I'd rather see it gone.
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Permalink | Quote | +Rep by Subzero008 » February 4, 2014 2:48pm | Report
Yes, I do.

The key to balancing it is not to see it as a generic warding active. I see it as an active for lane security. If you have Neith, who has good sustain and escapes, you won't get it. If you have a very risky hunter like Artemis, you'd get it.

That's the strength of Eye, in my eyes: Constant and consistent warding. It is quite possible to simply outlast normal wards by putting pressure on lanes. This way, you don't have to go back to base for wards, and you can stay consistently protected.

The upgraded Sentry ward Eye would be for similar purposes, but for map objectives only, rather than the entire half of a map. Since you can't ward both FG and GF with one Stealth Eye, this also encourages coordinated warding.

The other kind of Eye is where a large amount of vision is of paramount importance, like when you are with a noobish team, or against certain gods like Loki, Thor, or Fenrir.

Normal warding won't just have a "niche," it will still be completely necessary. I can see supports even with Eye buying "emergency wards" to avoid rotations and being flanked in teamfights. It's like offensive warding, basically, while Eye would be defensive. Both have their uses.
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Permalink | Quote | +Rep by Raventhor » February 4, 2014 2:53pm | Report
I would like to ask a question...
what does this conversation, or even topic post, have to do with the poll question? xD
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Permalink | Quote | +Rep by Setolino » February 4, 2014 2:57pm | Report
Well, EoP isnt that necesarry anymore, if i play Ymir or Odin supp i go with Blink, well early vision is missing but all in all, with Midas Boots, you can totally buy Wards.

I think EoP is fine atm.

However HoG needs a nerf and no not sth like one target or so. Just a cd nerf. Make it much hugher so they support have to save it and the Bruiser that buid Fist cant spam it anymore.

edit: sellable.. hmm maybe make it like you can sell them but you have to pay for it hahahah :D
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