SMITEFire Viability Ranking Thread :: Page 34

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Uhm, Why is AMC still in D?

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wrote:

Uhm, Why is AMC still in D?

Good question. After his recent buff, he certainly doesn't deserve it anymore. I personally have no AMC experience, so I cannot weigh in on this matter, but AMC should be included into the list of gods to be discussed.

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wrote:

Janitsu, I modified it to be more vertically friendly, but other than that it's good. ~~(I'm still not sure how to change the dimensions in adobe CS2 tho, will fix later.)~~ nvm got the trim to work n_n

While multiple tierlists would be unarguably a much more accessible take on the tierlisting than what we have now, it comes with the problem that you now have multiple threads that need to be moderated, rather than just one (Though I will admit, I haven't exactly been the best moderator); a general list also has the benefit of showing role flexibility, and only requires you to look at one page instead of four or five, which is at least something. The main fact about tierlists is that they're self-correcting - with enough opinions, no god will stay in a spot it doesn't belong in for long. It may be (correction, IS) a mess now, but it will sort itself out in due time.

We don't need any more talk about the differences and similarities of the different MOBAs; if you still want to talk about it, I'd recommend opening another theorycrafting thread for it.

And here's a thought: instead of complaining about how the list has a lot of erroneous placements, list where you think said misplacements should go, to at least bring up discussion on it.

So basically, you're unwilling to open multiple threads because it's so much work?

And role flexibility shouldn't be a factor at all. We don't make tier lists on assassin, mage, etc. We make them on mid, solo, support, ADC, etc etc. Therefore, ROLE FLEXIBILITY IS NOT A FACTOR. Eat my chocolate pastry cream-filled, perfectly browned, crisp eclairs dipped in snappy-smooth couveture bittersweet chocolate with plenty of sifted powdered sugar and freshly ground cinnamon and nutmeg sprinkled on top.

Tier lists are not self-correcting, and popular opinion shouldn't be the way to "autocorrect." We need a moderator with plenty of experience with the game as well as MOBA saviness in general, who appears and chats and comments often. Furthermore, saying your tier list is self-correcting is like saying a tortoise can run a mile - technically true, but far from ideal.

In addition to that, the MOBA tier list split isn't something exclusive to one MOBA or the other - it's something that applies to ALL mobas, simply because that's a consequence of how MOBAs work. As long as there is laning and multiple roles, there's going to be split tier lists.

A game like Call of Duty can afford a single tier list of weapons, because they all have the same function - kill people.

But this is not CoD. This is more like TF2, with multiple roles and classes.

We don't compare Scout to Heavy, or Medic to Spy. Different roles, different playstyles, different tier lists. We don't say the Natasha is better than the Baby Face's Blaster is better than the Quick-Fix. The game just doesn't work that way.

MOBAs are the same concept. The most fundamental aspect of MOBAs that separate it from stuff like Starcraft or Smash Bros is the teamwork. Characters aren't balanced around all other characters - they're balanced around what their role is supposed to achieve* - at least, in theory. Therefore, any tier list must do the same.

This is an incredibly obvious fact.

*You don't see AMC as a jungling assassin, or Guan Yu as mid AD carry, do you?

Lastly, I don't need to give reasons as to why it's ****ing ridiculous that Mercury is below Anubis, because it's self-evident, and frankly, if you NEED me to provide reasons, there's something wrong with your understanding of the game.

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Why not have multiple tier lists in one thread? I'm clearly missing something here.

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Eh, I don't really care where. MOBAFire has multiple in one thread.

In fact, why the **** was the POKEMON tier list format copied? If anything they should have copied MOBAFire's way.

Seriously, a game like Pokemon is about as far from a MOBA as you can get. Copying the tier list format of a game that is, at the very least, EXTREMELY SIMILAR to Smite, is a much better start.

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wrote:

So basically, you're unwilling to open multiple threads because it's so much work?

More or less. It's certainly too much for one person, and I highly doubt that we'll have enough volunteers to moderate them all.

And role flexibility shouldn't be a factor at all. We don't make tier lists on assassin, mage, etc. We make them on mid, solo, support, ADC, etc etc. Therefore, ROLE FLEXIBILITY IS NOT A FACTOR.

Wrong choice of vocabulary on my part, then; a better term would be "positions". Personally, I think gods should be ranked based on their functionality in their best position, with position flexibility being enough of a factor to bump a god up one or two subranks, maybe three at most.

Tier lists are not self-correcting

Here I have to disagree; if something's in the wrong place, sooner or later somebody's going to notice and point it out,and most likely moved at least closer to its correct position.

and popular opinion shouldn't be the way to "autocorrect."

Depends on the sample size. This list's problem lies in the fact that the SF community is small, and therefore statistically have a lesser chance of better players. But, what can we do about it? At worst, people get to voice their opinions and stimulate competitive discussion, which is still a win in my book.

We need a moderator with plenty of experience with the game as well as MOBA saviness in general, who appears and chats and comments often.

Agreed, but as I said above, our small community is naturally lacking in that department, and there's not much we can do about it.

Furthermore, saying your tier list is self-correcting is like saying a tortoise can run a mile - technically true, but far from ideal.

Agreed, the closer the starting point is to the real thing the better. If you think it needs a complete revamp as otherwise it'll autocorrect too slow,say so. If enough people agree, I'm happy with trying to collaborate with others to get a better starting point.

In addition to that, the MOBA tier list split isn't something exclusive to one MOBA or the other - it's something that applies to ALL mobas, simply because that's a consequence of how MOBAs work. As long as there is laning and multiple roles, there's going to be split tier lists.

Again, split tier lists are optimal, but ultimately (at least in my opinion) impractical.

A game like Call of Duty can afford a single tier list of weapons, because they all have the same function - kill people.

More or less, yeah.

But this is not CoD. This is more like TF2, with multiple roles and classes.

We don't compare Scout to Heavy, or Medic to Spy. Different roles, different playstyles, different tier lists. We don't say the Natasha is better than the Baby Face's Blaster is better than the Quick-Fix. The game just doesn't work that way.

I agree. The only thing different is that most weapons are class-exclusive, so you can literally have 0 comparison. Now if they made it so every character could equip every weapon, they very well could be ranked on the same tierlist.

MOBAs are the same concept. The most fundamental aspect of MOBAs that separate it from stuff like Starcraft or Smash Bros is the teamwork. Characters aren't balanced around all other characters - they're balanced around what their role is supposed to achieve* - at least, in theory. Therefore, any tier list must do the same.

well, they don't HAVE to per se, but it's certainly preferred.

This is an incredibly obvious fact.

*You don't see AMC as a jungling assassin, or Guan Yu as mid AD carry, do you?

Actually, I've seen both once, but I get your point.

Lastly, I don't need to give reasons as to why it's ****ing ridiculous that Mercury is below Anubis, because it's self-evident, and frankly, if you NEED me to provide reasons, there's something wrong with your understanding of the game.

That would be a fault on my moderation, not the tierlist; I shall take all the blame for that.

In short: it's easier, less clunky, and less resource intensive to have one single tierlist that frankly does its job well enough anyways. A general tierlist also better reflects the current metagame since you're seeing everything at once instead of being seperate. That probably made no sense whatsoever, but I'm tired. I'll try to come up with a better answer tomorrow.

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"Wrong choice of vocabulary on my part, then; a better term would be "positions". Personally, I think gods should be ranked based on their functionality in their best position, with position flexibility being enough of a factor to bump a god up one or two subranks, maybe three at most."

Or...maybe instead of trying to quantify Guan Support adding to the position of Guan Solo. which is impossible as that kind of thing is impossible to put in raw numbers, you could just ****ing give Guan two positions in "Solo" and "Support" tier lists.

Positions, roles, classes, it's all pedantic. They all mean the same thing - divisions.

"Again, split tier lists are optimal, but ultimately (at least in my opinion) impractical."

tl;dr: We're too small to have split tier lists.

MOBAFire's Tier List has double the champions to take care of. Having split tier lists IS THE PRACTICAL OPTION. Small bites, not big ones. Don't bite off more than what you can chew. Etc.

Listen to yourself. What doesn't sound ridiculous?

To quantify the benefits of flexibility, which is impossible, and add it into a tier list. For example, recently, I've seen Thor support and Thor jungle in conquest ranked. It has a decent track record from what I've seen, so does this mean we should bump Thor to a higher rank? Because, obviously, flexibility in other roles affects how good Thor is as a jungler.

Or:

To judge them all separately by their own merits. For example, Guan isn't going to be higher rated than Chaac because he can jungle and support sloppily. Instead, he's going to be rated as a tier 2 solo and support and a tier 3 jungle. Hypothetically.

What sounds like the sanest option?

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wrote:

This was posted because of Janitsu, i didnt actually read you text so far. Gonna edit this post if i did.

edit.

I dont know what this have to do with Hades still beeing a guardian since he is played as tanky mage, so still a frontline hence some would call it a supportive god, same with Cabroken or Chaac or Odin or Tyr. Its all neat that you summed up the history of MOBA that i already know of, but my statement remains the same, that not every Guardian have to be a support and that not any non guardian cant be a tanky support. I dont really understand how your comment should help you argument, because it actually supports my case.

Smite normally has used tanks for supporting (because if you look at the duo lane you always see a tank build warrior or a tank build guardian) so. Because Hades is only good as solo mage (I don't know how stomped he get's nowadays in mid) but if he is only good in solo in a generallises you won't hit a high tier fast (Bellona is also pretty high as well she can fill in 3 different roles (4 if adc belonna is still a thing).

also if I go onto talen's tier description I think B+ is actually a good spot for him though (as compared to the tierlist site the B tier of this tier list is the same as the A tier from the tierlist site) because he isn't fantastic because most gods can easily get out of his ultimate (and if people are smart they won't group making hades only catch 1 or 2 people. also can he be fairly easily bursted while ulting (especially as mage). so yeah I think he is actually in the right spot now.

I do agree on subs point about flexibility which can throw of gods pretty well. IMO a general tier list is a bad format you could almost better copy Dota's format which is totally based on pros pick ban rates. because the meta is normally always made by pro builds and pro picks etc.

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Ah common, Hades is just played on Solo anyways, hence you rate him as where he is strongest at. If we go with your logic everbody that can fill more roles should be higher in the tier list (example Freya) and this is ********, you can play a god that is medicore in many roles but still worse than gods that just can be played as one role, for example Hades can realistcly just be played as solo laner, while you can put Bakasura on solo and jungle, he still gonna loose the lane fight to a hades 10/10 if both players are on the same skill level.

You obvious never played against a Hades that is good, he demolishs you in early to mid game, and in late he doesnt fall of to hard. Still can 2hit you, the Ult is pretty much the same as Ares, it forces abilities and actives out so your team have an easier time to follow up. The ult never was about, that the enemy stays in, it is just a positiv side effect if it happens.

Hades is just example for the argumentation tho.

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