Thoth theoretical Spear of the Magus build and Pen overcap

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I have been theorising one or two builds that have in them and I was wondering if they could be viable as a more team-oriented build compared with ones that incorporate , as passive works through 's basics using on towers as well as ally's auto attacks through the wall. Also I know is great on right now but that item is better suited with , as I believe needs mana and cooldown reduction to have its passive applied constantly to use it to its full potential.

Start: , Soul Reliquary , . (Not the best start, but is the best rush start)

Build Path 1: , , , (expensive at fourth item but is really needed at this point), , .

Build Path 2: , , , , , . Now this build would be my preferred one (with the max cooldown reduction) , however when gets his passive fully online it provides him 20 flat magical penetration, however this builds exceeds the magical penetration cap (+35 from and ) by 5 flat magical penetration, is this really a big deal or not? And if so, is build 1 better?

Link to builds if you want to see it bigger - it's the third build : https://www.smitefire.com/smite/guide/thoth-the-arcane-spellcaster-mid-lane-ranked-casual-conquest-builds-17901

Edit: Build 1 doesen't work well at all with .

Rifts of Chaos - Chronos Conquest Guide

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Renowned (143)
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Hey Kriega,

Interesting concept...that enhanced damage bonus from could help take down objectives more quickly when you've got ranged basic teammates nearby.

Regarding Spear of the Magus, you say that the passive works through Thoth's basics on towers. I do want to point out that protection reduction effects do not apply to towers/phoenixes...only % pen and flat pen work on towers. As such, you'd only get benefit on towers from the 15 flat pen...and although the bonus damage from Glyph would increase teammates' ranged basics, they won't get that same 15 pen benefit...only you (at least, as far as I know).

Regarding CDR, I personally don't think 40% is necessary. His CD on is 5 seconds so it can basically be perpetually active. When you're talking about CD to help the passive Spear effect, I'm assuming you're specifically talking about . That has a CD of 8 seconds, so I understand the concept...but it only provides 3 hits, and the Spear passive only stacks with ability damage. So I don't think you'll usually have it fully stacked with him, making the hands-down superior pen item for him.

Regarding overcapping pen, I don't think the 5 overcap is a big deal.

I definitely like build #2 better, but would change it thus...

, , , , , / (whichever order needed), switch Magi for . 20% CDR seems like plenty for him, at least in my estimation.

I'm not sure though...is any of my info above incorrect?

*EDIT* From the Word of Thoth:

Generally speaking, ability damage and debuﬀs cannot be applied to a tower,with the exception of Fafnir’s Coerce or Thoth’s Glyph of Pain and the ability damage applied from these two sources, which can apply eﬀects such as Spear of the Magus.

Also, Smite Wiki:

Debuff penetration effects like , , and 's aura, aside when affected by a rare ability that applies triggering damage to towers, like 's , do not apply to Towers and Phoenixes.

Okay...so...damn, didn't know that. So that means...Thoth's own attacks actually apply the effect on structures?

This maybe changes things, but perhaps situationally? Still think CDR isn't all that necessary. Towers have 150 physical and magical protection. Spear, once stacked, sounds like it applies up to 65 pen effect for , and 50 for other magical gods. Means, standalone, Spear CAN be a bit more effective than for . But, if the only other magical god is a Guardian in Conquest, is the only one that will get that added pen from it. At that point, Glyph still has its function for any ranged gods just for the damage increase, but otherwise, I'd say is still better overall, especially for ult use.

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Mythical (400)
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Word of Thoth.
Someone actually made a textbook out of smite mechanics? That's pretty cool. I'm gonna give it a good, thorough read.

Bran, you should teach a college class on smite/MOBAs.

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Prominent (46)
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@boogie, oh man that would be awful!!! LOL

It's one of those where...okay, my general knowledge of basic mechanics and things are solid, but not anywhere close to elite. Look at my self-analysis and Duotem's analysis of my game from my blog to see the level of detail and things that I never even thought about. And gameplay-wise, it's one of those things that I probably KNOW better than to do something, but I do it anyway because I'm stupid at actually applying things I know, hahaha.

I'm just really, really interested in said mechanics on a general level. I was thinking of builds from the first time I played it, and have needed that knowledge to be even remotely functional in the game.

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Mythical (400)
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Just buy stone of gaia and cronos and thebes and you will be good

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I get what you're trying to do here with the build, but it negates what the god is good at in the process. Thoth is a tactical nuke so you want to be doing as much as you can with one ability from as far away as you can. You won't always have the time to build up the stacks which is why Obsidian shard is the better option 99% of the time. Both builds also have really awkward power spikes relative to what other mages will be building.

Build 1: You super overcap pen early against your most relevant targets. Your direct lane opponent who should be your main target only has a base of 30 so you're only getting 5 out of Spear passive if you don't have the god passive stacked. Even against other targets the fact that you have to take the time to build up makes it really rough

Build 2: Swapping Magus and Book of Thoth's spot makes the curve a bit better but it still has a really awkward curve. You still run into the issue of the enemy mage hitting you harder unless you have had time to build up the passive.

If you have to run one of these then run the second, but you're risking a lot by forcing yourself to play closer and within the magus timer to do significant damage come late game. Tanks, warriors especially, get to free dive you and will likely kill you before you can get away. You'll also straight up lose fights cause your ult won't do enough off of team set up alone.

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Memorable (10)
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@Branmuffin17, I took a proper look at and and I feel that the max cooldown reduction is what can make the item somewhat viable in certain scenarios, as has a 8 sec cooldown as you stated but with 40% CDR you will reduce this to 4.8 seconds (not including the 1 second reduction from passive from ) barely allowing you to keep the passive of maintained which lasts five seconds, though this would be easier if you find a safe way to use when is on cooldown, which will also refresh a stack from .

The build you suggested is good and I know that overall is generally the better choice, but after realising that is Magical protection reduction not protection reduction (Im foolish), I therefore think it may be viable IF your team has another Magical high damage dealer (e.g. , - Freya wont need to build ) and only in the build which I suggest which has max CDR and max Flat Pen since you don't have (With a overcap of 5 but you said it doesn't really matter much).

@Duotem, For your point on maintaining the passive of the 40% cooldown reduction (build 2) on is what allows this (4.8 second cooldown but Magus stacks each last 5 second), I just realised the first build wouldnt work at all with . Also on your point on playing closer, has good range if he uses with but you are definitely correct about having to play around . So would you say the second build can still be viable IF the other Magical god on your team is a high damage dealer, or even if you have three Magical, two Physical team?

Rifts of Chaos - Chronos Conquest Guide

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Renowned (143)
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I understand why you built the cooldown lmao that's not the issue. I would say anything can work in casuals :), but anyone who knows what they're doing is going to punish you hard for it. It's nothing I would ever recommend or expect to see past low level ranked at the most.

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Memorable (10)
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wrote:

Word of Thoth.
Someone actually made a textbook out of smite mechanics? That's pretty cool. I'm gonna give it a good, thorough read.

Bran, you should teach a college class on smite/MOBAs.

It's existed already somewhere in S1 I believe.

Also making the common mistake of saying all MOBAs are the same is a big mistake. the only time that's true is when you look at the countless chinese (or whatever asian country it was) complete LoL clones

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Renowned (105)
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@Kriega, definitely understand the thought process. Other than what Duo said, big issue is that you're building this more for teamfight or objective function...means that, unless that magical ADC or whatever is with you, the purpose of the build is potentially significantly less effective. If teammates adjust their focus to coincide with yours, this basically voids potential strategies like split pushing, at least for ADCs (maybe not so much an Assassin Jungler).

Given that the ability already increases all teammates' ranged attack damage, I think that that is more than enough...building normally, they'll have their own pen (hopefully) so you just provide some enhancement in specific situations, while you retain your standard effectiveness.

Granted, 4.8 seconds on is pretty darn quick and nice...not sure max CDR is needed, but it's one of those cases like or where an item like , with its passive, may be quite beneficial when you're always spamming abilities.

In any case, I absolutely love that you attempted to think outside the box. Whether or not it works well, it's a cool idea. Also, you taught me something...never knew the ability worked with .

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Mythical (400)
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Thoth theoretical Spear of the Magus build and Pen overcap

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