Let's Make Patch Notes - Guardians :: Page 9

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wrote:

I'm really sorry, but I'm finding it really hard to word this nicely. It's just a mix of can't be bothered explaining why your suggestion is bad and pointless, and a mix of how irritated I am at how 'blind' you are.

The problem with Ares' ultimate right now is not the fact that it is hard countered by Purification Beads, but more so if you don't have Purification Beads, you are just ****ed. While it may not be TT's original intention, I see this change as still keeping Ares' effectiveness but making it so Purification Beads is not detrimental.

I'd also like to say that, I don't know if it's just you not reading carefully or whatever, but the minimum duration of the ultimate is 4 seconds. Purification Beads lasts 3 seconds at max rank. That means that even if you do use Purification Beads, you will still be pulled once, it just won't be as bad if yo don't have beads.

Now please don't try to argue this, because I swear that I'm going to snap if this argument goes any longer. I'm already irritated that I'm spending my time here talking about something pointless when I could be doing something else that I could actually be having fun with or being productive.

I see what you are saying. I went back and re-read. I overlooked how beads would effect the ult in this case. :/

Prominent (31)
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Okay: I know I'm necroing. But I thought it better to slightly necro something then to make a brand-new thread about it.

It's really just my ideas for a rework. Here I go:

: Make all blight affects mandatory; new passive, (level/4)*(amount of protection items) protection debuff aura within 20(?) feet.

: increase slow by 10% at all ranks; lower damage scaling.

: Increase fear scaling; if any god hit has an ability on CDR, add 1/2/3/4/5 seconds to it (cannot exceed base CD); if an ability is being used when this is applied, it is put on CD (I'm looking at you, ).

: any enemies hit are stunned for ~~1/2/3/4/5~~ 1/1.25/1.5/1.75/2 OR 1/1.5/2/2.5/3 ~~minutes~~ seconds; Increase healing; remove scaling on healing.

: Make invulnerable; give it cripple; increase radius by 10 OR 20; remove all damage; maybe change the duration; have it pull in gods faster(?).

Basically, I want him to be more gaurdian-focused:
: rank 1, 0.25 protections removed. Rank 20, half build (midas doesnt count as a tank item), 15 protection debuff aura. Full build, level 20, 30 protection debuff aura. Might need a slight nerf?

: The slow was kinda underwhelming, and saying you probably aren't going to upgrade it first, to have the slow still be useful earlygame.

: One of my friend's favorite arguments against Shroud is that "So you pick because you can interrupt Guan's 3? why not just pick or , who can do it as well, and are better choices?" This is basically making it worth something, and add a lot of defense to a god that honestly lacks it.

: needs hard CC, can be tanky and still be able to heal, and still has the earlygame damage that lets him be so aggressive.

: From what I've seen, this is such a gamechanger because of the pull, not the damage. But if I remove the damage, who's to stop them from focusing ? so, I made him invulnerable. The cripple is to keep his ult from being useless, and the increased radius is to hopefully make beads a less viable option, though that might be a tad much.

So. What do you guys think? this is really my optimal , though I could understand some small nerfs/buffs.

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The invulnerability seems a bit much. The invulnerablility would make him be ignored since he don't do damage. Maybe we should double or triple his protections so the enemy team can at least try to burst him down.

Memorable (13)
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Tal, I like your ideas, but I think Hades' new Blight can be simplified to simply -20 protections, or -15 protections, etc, since supports are mostly about the early game anyway.

But I dislike your changes to Shroud and Devour Souls. Why?

Firstly, Shroud already gives a CC comparable to and , with a lower cooldown. At max rank, it has a cooldown of 11 seconds. In fact, I think in light of this, the fear duration should be toned down.

Secondly, your changes to Hades have already given him a 50% slow, and a fear with a short cooldown. He does not need a stun, since I think that would make him the most overpowered support in the game.

But your ultimate idea is amazing. The problem with adding cripple was that it caused unavoidable damage, but without the damage, it becomes very balanced. But I would not increase the radius, and I hate enough that I would dislike the invincibility. Instead, why not have it grant protections (which it already does), and give it a nuke effect at the very end? It adds some counterplay options (kill Hades? Beads out? Aegis the nuke?), and the nuke can still be support-like, perhaps by healing. It also fits in well with , almost like a giant version of it.

That's my reaction, at any rate.

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Few points on : He definitely needs skill rework

- Making him invincible on ulti and dealing no damage on it, gets to two too extremes!. Every
god must have skill utility even in a solo scenerio. Keep cripple for first half of the
ulti and make him invulnerable for the last second. This can help him escape out using 1.
Don't increase the radius but make him deal damage.

- His passive should be connected to his basic attacks too. Some kind of progression on basic
attack speed with successive blights.

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Memorable (12)
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Crippling while keeping the damage, as I stated previously, would be too strong. His deals 840 + 240% of Hades' magical power, 420 damage + 120% is too strong when it is unavoidable, not to mention by the time it no longer cripples, you'd be blasted by dozens of area attacks from his friends. I think there are already enough Beads-Or-Die ultimate in the game.

I'm personally kind of split about his basic attacks. Yes, he is a ranged support, but let's face it: his entire kit is in melee range. I guess buffing his basic attacks via his passive could give him some unique utility for a guardian, but it just clashes so much with his kit, it might make another Poseidon out of him.

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wrote:

That's very fine points you made. Guess, he needs total rework and can't be fixed with minimal patch work. His passive and basic attacks should be fixed first, then we can discuss on the ultimate.

Fun and Heart
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Memorable (12)
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Okay, yeah, my previous idea was a *tad* overpowered. So here are some nerfs to the idea:

: protections debuffed are equal to ' level. 1 at level 1, 20 at level 20. (possible idea - give all stolen protections? no, that would be overpowered... maybe from only one god?)

: keep it as it is for the current , with the slow mandatory ofc. Still 20/25/30/35/40.

: Remove the strange CDR thing. It should still put the channeled abilities on CD tho - like, if you Shroud Anubis during , he'll be feared and the locusts will be put on CD. Things like and Taoulu Assault, too.

: Either make it a Mesmerize or remove the stun. Keep the healing buff and removal of healing scaling, tho.

: Remove invincibility. Keep cripple, and remove the damage. Prot. shred still stays. (yes, ik it's still a BEADS OR DIE ult, but now that his kit is stronger, it should balance out somewhat). No need to add extra protections - you're gonna be building tank anyways.

That should fix things.

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I think we're good for Hades.

Hades Specifics: He wasn't really much of a support, and we tried to make him more like one.

MadDanny's Proposal

Talenheim's Proposal

Sub's Stuff

wrote:

Firstly, I think we all can agree that needs a permanent fear on it. I don't really see what is wrong with a 2 second fear, considering Ymir has a 2.25 second stun and Athena has a 2 second taunt. As for the Blighted effect, I personally would like to remove the debuff. Keep in mind that my changes are oriented to making him more guardian-like.

Now, . This is a bit complicated.

We all know about the minion wave. Its just 20 feet across, a perfect size for . Each explosion also has a 20-foot radius, creating a deadly zone centered around each group of three minions, and a killer zone around Hades himself.

Firstly, let's look at the damage numbers. The initial damage is 215 (+60%).

Each group of three minions in the wave is going to take this damage, plus 48 (+50% of MP). This extra damage is multiplied by two, because detonated enemies do not take their own detonation damage. In other words, in a roughly 18 foot radius, the three minions take a total of 311 damage (+160% of your magical power). Same for the back minions.

However, in the very center, around Hades, enemies will take the full detonation damage of all six minions, taking 503 damage (+360% of your magical power).

As for healing, Hades and his allies will heal for 420 + 90% of your magical power in the center OR 210 + 45% next to each "cluster" of minions, which is surprisingly sensible.

All from one ability. So yeah, I take back all my comments about Cupid having ridiculous contributions.

IF I were making him a mage, I'd still tone down those numbers, which are honestly a bit ridiculous.

But since I'm leaning toward support, I think some utility is in order. I think the first step should be changing the way the ability works. No more detonation shenanigans, Hades just heals and deals additional damage for each enemy hit, up to three, which is a much easier number to balance than six.

Now, let's take a look at the numbers.

75/110/145/180/215 + 40% for the initial hit - 10% contribution reduction

Maybe...10/20/30/40/50 + 10% damage, and healing 20/35/50/65/80 + 15%,for each enemy hit, for a total of 365 damage (+70% contributions) and 240 + 45% healing.

This is in a 20-foot radius, mind you, so I put the damage intentionally below .

Now, for the utility part. If you haven't noticed, if is a permanent fear, then there is no need for the silence. I say make enemies silenced for 0.5/0.6/0.7/0.8/0.9 seconds, increasing by 0.2 for each enemy hit.

How's that?

wrote:

I think the problem with Hades' ult is the same problem with Zeus, give them a tiny thing, and it becomes OP, make it slightly weaker, it becomes useless.

I think firstly, the damage on that thing needs to be lowered. It currently deals 360/480/600/720/840 damage (+240% of your magical power). If I lower the magical scaling, it would reduce a lot of his viability as a mage, but if I lower the base damage, it lowers his viability as a tank. I'll just go with a general damage drop and make it deal 280/360/440/520/600 damage (+200% of your magical power). It's quite a sharp drop, but it is much easier to balance the CC when it doesn't also deal a **** ton of damage.

Right, let's see.... It pulls, and nothing else. Escape skills are enough to get out of it, and since the damage is over time, you can usually avoid some damage even if you have to wait for your skill to come off cooldown.

Honestly, I want to avoid more "beads or DIE!" kind of ultimates, like or . I vote for giving it more utility.

How about this: After four seconds, Hades releases his sustained agony, dealing additional damage and healing allies for half his damage taken + 20% of his maximum health.

Now, you might be wondering, this change doesn't make his ultimate less counterable. Well, you're right. It just provides some minor utility, and that's all I can think of because his ultimate is stuck in an awkward design trap. Problem is, his ultimate is a large part of what playing Hades is like, so I have no idea what to do.

My version of : Hades' basic attacks deal additional damage equal to 3 x his level + 6% of his maximum health and apply a healing reduction debuff for 5 seconds. This debuff spreads to enemies within 15 feet, like , but only from the original source. Heal reduction: 50%.

Welp, now he can make use of his ranged basic attacks, which will never deal as much damage as a hunter's or bruiser's, but they won't be completely insignificant. I also removed the additional Blight effect to make his abilities easier to balance.[/quote]

Now for Geb-Geb. Some say he's broken, others say he's not. I played him as a support tank, and honestly, I think he is balanced during the laning phase. Either that, or I don't know and other people I've faced don't know how to play Geb.

I think the biggest design problem is in his . His is strong, but laughably easy to avoid, and his is an odd ability, but I think it works. But his shield gets overpowered late game, where it essentially makes someone invincible.

I propose reducing Geb's late game power and increasing his laning phase' power by altering the numbers on his shield. From 0/50/100/150/200 to 100/150/200/250/300, and lowering his contributions from 18% of his maximum health to 15%.

At 3500 health, this change will only lower the shield's amount by 5. But it will be a nerf to those who will be inevitably get on him, and a small buff for utility Geb-Gebs.

I have another unrelated proposal that seeks to add counterplay to Geb's shield, as well as more utility. It no longer cleanses CC. It is destroyed when the target is hit by a hard CC effect, but the hard CC effect is negated. I vastly prefer this shield over the old one, as it is now possible to counter it, but it doesn't really affect the usefulness of the shield.

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I'm not sure if the shield is affected by the target's protection, but I think it is. In my opinion it should be health increase without protections. True-damage shield, if you will.

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