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wrote:

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Just look at it this way:

Fenrir has more base damage (38 vs 37), more base protection (14+3 vs 11+2.9), and more base health (455+78 vs 390+75) than Thanatos. Their health, mana, and base damage scale the same with level, however Fenrir's HP5 scales more (8+0.73 vs 8+0.67), while Thanatos's MP5 scales more (3.7+0.26 vs 4.4+0.38). Fenrir's attacks are a flat 1x multiplier, while Thanatos has a progression of 1x/.75x/1.5x, meaning that unless he always lands his third hit, he will be doing less damage on basics. Summary: Fenrir has higher base stats across the board, especially health and protections, and his HP5 scales more, only falling behind when Thanatos consistently lands his third basic attack, if the encounter even gets that far.

Thanatos's primary damage () is a skillshot and can be easily dodged. Fenrir's () is not because it is near-impossible to miss in close range, and will stick to you if it hits. If Thanatos misses his 1, he gets no healing. He also loses 5% of his health. If Fenrir's primary damage is canceled, he has his steroid to make up for it by giving large amounts of lifesteal and physical power. Fenrir's primary damage is also stronger than Thanatos's by far, due to the multiple hits (165x4 = 660 + 50% phys power vs flat 380 + 60% phys power). Summary: Both Thanatos and Fenrir have somewhat unreliable main damage abilities when used against each other, due to either missing or being silenced, but Fenrir will ultimately have more options and do more damage on landing his.

Fenrir's 2 () is a steroid, increasing both physical power and physical lifesteal by large amounts, giving a steep advantage even when fighting flat footed. Thanatos's 2 () is a steroid that marginally increases penetration (speaking in relevance when fighting melee), and also consumes 5% of his health. Summary: Fenrir gains both damage and lifesteal, synergizing to equal more damage on the enemy and more health returned due to the increase in damage, while Thanatos only gains penetration on a much lower scaling, giving little benefit to sustain in melee against a lifestealing enemy.

Thanatos's CC, , silences and has the ability to counter Fenrir's three if timed correctly or if Fenrir chooses to be dumb and blow it early. It can be dodged by staying close to Thanatos and circling, however, and consumes 5% of his health. Fenrir's CC, , does more damage (335 + 80% phys power vs 300 + 80% phys power) and is a hard stun of 1s from rank 1 with full runes (as it's always used, vs scaling silence starting at .5s), on the other hand. Summary: This is basically the only thing Thanatos has going for him to counter Fenrir, and this is forcing him to save it specifically for that purpose. If Thanatos uses it early, Fenrir can freely use his 3. Fenrir's CC is also harder to land and needs full runes built.

Fenrir's ultimate allows him to carry Thanatos into a friendly tower or ally to finish him off, plus gives double protections if used with full runes and CC immunity, and does far more damage (450 + 120% phys power vs 230 + 80% phys power). Thanatos's ultimate allows for an instant kill under a health threshold, but can be easily dodged and also forces him to stay stationary and eat a lot of damage when used in melee, more than likely resulting in his death. It also costs 10% of his current health to use. Summary: Thanatos's ultimate is situational at best and offers little benefit when fighting an enemy directly on top of you when you're already at low health, Fenrir's offers double protections if needed to escape and deals considerable damage on its own, far more than a non-lethal hit, even if you don't take them into a tower or ally, plus CC immunity.

Other things: If Thanatos uses all three of his abilities in a fight, he's already lost 15% of his health without any enemy damage calculated in, which is most painful if he misses his 1 especially.

Fenrir can simply hold his 3 if he thinks Thanatos is going to use it to turn around a gank.

counters both of them, if either buys it. counters the silence in mid if used beforehand, and also cancels , on the other hand.

Also, need to test if cancels the silence when used. If so, that just completely breaks the "Thanatos counter" argument anyways.

But, there's the hard stats of the matter. Fenrir is simply more reliable than Thanatos, because everything rests on him landing . Not saying is useless, but there are always better options and he is labeled "Very Hard" for a reason. This is all dependent on player skill, of course.

Oh and passives, Thanatos's is only good for jungle sustain and Fenrir's alters his abilities, but is nearly always used specifically for the stun on or bonus to , so somewhat irrelevant in a melee 1v1.

Sorry for thread derail.

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wrote:

What have I done...

You created a MONSTER!
I think....

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You're far too hostile towards people who do not share your opinion, Subzero.

I agree with most of your points but there's no need to be so derogatory towards people who don't agree with you. Were you bottlefed?

Also, Thanatos isn't the only assassin that can take Death's Toll over Mask, Bakasura can make do with Death's Toll too.

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wrote:

.. Were you bottlefed? ..

You're pretty derogatory and hostile yourself, buddy. That was really unecessary.

Even though Ghraf made really strong points as well and I commend you for replying so calmly to, what is seemingly, hyped up post.
I do still think the entire discussion is disregardable because it's a comparison of actions, not so much of theory. It's basically experimental science. It's because it's being based on on a variable that X will happend if Y is done. You know how much I love to link stuff, so here goes: Correlation does not imply causation.

ps: can make do with Death's Toll too.

That's just my 2 cents.

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P.p.s. Thanatos and arachne should both do it without dt because it is a waste of 800 gold on them.

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wrote:

Explain to me how asking if someone was bottlefed is hostile/derogatory.

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wrote:

Fenrir has more base damage (38 vs 37), more base protection (14+3 vs 11+2.9), and more base health (455+78 vs 390+75) than Thanatos. Their health, mana, and base damage scale the same with level, however Fenrir's HP5 scales more (8+0.73 vs 8+0.67), while Thanatos's MP5 scales more (3.7+0.26 vs 4.4+0.38). Fenrir's attacks are a flat 1x multiplier, while Thanatos has a progression of 1x/.75x/1.5x, meaning that unless he always lands his third hit, he will be doing less damage on basics. Summary: Fenrir has higher base stats across the board, especially health and protections, and his HP5 scales more, only falling behind when Thanatos consistently lands his third basic attack, if the encounter even gets that far.

Stop making the argument where Fenrir is a genius and Thanatos is an idiot. Base stats don't matter too much, and you keep acting like the 1.5 basic is a detriment.

wrote:

Thanatos's primary damage () is a skillshot and can be easily dodged. Fenrir's () is not because it is near-impossible to miss in close range, and will stick to you if it hits. If Thanatos misses his 1, he gets no healing. He also loses 5% of his health. If Fenrir's primary damage is canceled, he has his steroid to make up for it by giving large amounts of lifesteal and physical power. Fenrir's primary damage is also stronger than Thanatos's by far, due to the multiple hits (165x4 = 660 + 50% phys power vs flat 380 + 60% phys power). Summary: Both Thanatos and Fenrir have somewhat unreliable main damage abilities when used against each other, due to either missing or being silenced, but Fenrir will ultimately have more options and do more damage on landing his.

Oh my god, you keep acting like the Thanatos is a moron!

Firstly, is pretty easy to hit. If you can hit hunters with it, you can certainly hit a melee assassin with it.

Secondly, you seem to have missed one vital step in your argument: Within Fenrir's attack range, literally cannot miss. Think about that.

Thirdly, a steroid is not an acceptable substitute for a skill. They have completely different uses, especially when Fenrir has to get into basic attack range to make the most of it, oh, wait, Thanatos has a slow and a speed buff.

Fourth, in early-mid game, is literally 2/3 of Fenrir's damage. Negate Brutalize = Victory.

I don't know if you play casual pretty often, but in league, people don't miss, like, ever. And especially against melee gods. So your argument about reliability and modes of attack is invalid.

Also, how the hell does Fenrir have more options? He jumps in, Brutalizes, gets the kill. That's literally it. Thanatos can kite melee characters for a short while, he can interrupt channeled attacks like , he has a stun just in case, and a self-heal. More importantly, he has range, which you seem desperately determined to ignore.

wrote:

Fenrir's 2 () is a steroid, increasing both physical power and physical lifesteal by large amounts, giving a steep advantage even when fighting flat footed. Thanatos's 2 () is a steroid that marginally increases penetration (speaking in relevance when fighting melee), and also consumes 5% of his health. Summary: Fenrir gains both damage and lifesteal, synergizing to equal more damage on the enemy and more health returned due to the increase in damage, while Thanatos only gains penetration on a much lower scaling, giving little benefit to sustain in melee against a lifestealing enemy.

You cannot be this dumb. I refuse to accept it.

Firstly, Fenrirs level their steroid either last or second-last.

Secondly, duels in the jungle only occur mid-early game. If you are fighting alone in the jungle late game, you aren't a smart player.

Lastly, you forgot something: It is really ****ing easy to hit with on a god who is melee basic attacking you, unless you have .

STOP ACTING LIKE FENRIR CAN HIT WITH EVERY ****ING ATTACK AND ABILITY WHILE THANATOS MOVES LIKE A MORON. If you are reduced to giving handicaps to the other side to bolster your argument, then you have no argument.

wrote:

Thanatos's CC, , silences and has the ability to counter Fenrir's three if timed correctly or if Fenrir chooses to be dumb and blow it early. It can be dodged by staying close to Thanatos and circling, however, and consumes 5% of his health.

I can't take you seriously anymore. I just can't. You honestly say it is possible to dodge . That's it. From here on, I'll just assume you play the game once a week.

wrote:

Fenrir's CC, , does more damage (335 + 80% phys power vs 300 + 80% phys power) and is a hard stun of 1s from rank 1 with full runes (as it's always used, vs scaling silence starting at .5s), on the other hand. Summary: This is basically the only thing Thanatos has going for him to counter Fenrir, and this is forcing him to save it specifically for that purpose. If Thanatos uses it early, Fenrir can freely use his 3. Fenrir's CC is also harder to land and needs full runes built.

Again, you keep making narrow-minded assumptions. Not everyone will be fighting in an open area at level 20 with a full build.

I don't think you understand about base damage. Thanatos converts 10% of the enemy's health as base damage for his one. That means regardless of rank, it'll deal a good chunk of damage on anything that's not a tank, and there's more to the ability than your simplistic numbers.

In other words, Thanatos has access to two useful damage skills in early levels. Fenrir has only one. Ugh, I hate sophistry.

wrote:

Fenrir's ultimate allows him to carry Thanatos into a friendly tower or ally to finish him off, plus gives double protections if used with full runes and CC immunity, and does far more damage (450 + 120% phys power vs 230 + 80% phys power). Thanatos's ultimate allows for an instant kill under a health threshold, but can be easily dodged and also forces him to stay stationary and eat a lot of damage when used in melee, more than likely resulting in his death. It also costs 10% of his current health to use. Summary: Thanatos's ultimate is situational at best and offers little benefit when fighting an enemy directly on top of you when you're already at low health, Fenrir's offers double protections if needed to escape and deals considerable damage on its own, far more than a non-lethal hit, even if you don't take them into a tower or ally, plus CC immunity.

Again, you always say Thanatos' abilties can be easily dodged. You always act liek Fenrir will have full runes.

Well, let me tell YOU something. If Fenrir goes below 45% health, he's dead. The END. Think about that. Seriously, just sit and think about it, because you just disregard every single one of Thanatos' strengths.

We're done. I'm done. It's obvious that you are biased for Fenrir, with the way you keep saying one ability is blatantly better than the other, how this can be "easily dodged", etc. It is impossible to have a reasonable argument with your skewing of the facts. Impossible.

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Explain to me how asking if someone was bottlefed is hostile/derogatory.

That's because it has no relation to the topic (or forum) at all, it's safe to assume that by asking if he was bottle fed, you're refering to the sometimes said thought that bottle fed babies are less intelligent, have a higher chance on complications and/or had less love from their parents.

In this case I think you're referring to the latter, wheras children that had less love usually grow up more socially distorted. Which is, in every sense, an insult and derogatory towards Subzero. (and untrue, I might add)

EDIT: Unless there's a internet-ish definition of being bottle fed that I have no idea about.

That's just my 2 cents.

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wrote:

Yeah, I agree with Thiel, you're acting pretty belligerent yourself.

My first counterargument was calm, but the second, well, I get hostile when people use fallacious logic to back up an argument.

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wrote:

Definite +1 for this.

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