Why Loki Needs a Nerf

Forum » General Discussion » Why Loki Needs a Nerf 27 posts - page 1 of 3

[rant]

I'm not saying that Loki is a no-skill god (they're an extinct species), but what I am saying is that the required investment of skill to play him is highly disproportionate to the results.

Or in less verbose words, you can practice with him for one match, then completely destroy the enemy in the next.

Here are the most common counters I hear for Loki.

- Deny him farm. Obviously, this isn't an option in some cases, like if Loki is jungling. You could try to kill him, in that case he'll out. This leads to the second bullet, which is...

- Use CC. Obviously, slows are of a limited effect, not only since Vanish gives a 35% speed buff, but also because most Lokis I see get sprint. Taunting and fearing could work, but they are rather limited. Stuns usually work if you can see your enemy. There really is no way (as in, a strategy) for a god to kill him unless you are a specific kind of god. And even then, you are significantly hampered by the fact that you have an educated guess at best on finding his position, while he can see you perfectly.

- Build against him. Getting something like Hide of the Nemean Lion will be effective, but that doesn't change the fact that you are spending precious gold to get one item that is intended to be used against one player.

And even if you can hit him every time, even if you can easily kill him, and even if you build against him, that all doesn't change the fact that...

He can still kill you. Loki isn't Artemis, who is fairly simple to shut down in the beginning of the match. His sheer damage, combined with his self buffs and slows, and his high mobility guarantee that he will get a few kills at least each match. And his ult is just ridiculous. If he reserves his ultimate due to his sheer confidence in killing you, he essentially has a free "get out of jail" card. If you somehow get the upper hand on the fight, he'll stun you, get behind you (and forcing you to turn around, wasting time), get some life since he's probably using lifesteal, and probably kill you.

Or he could just use it to teleport out. Or he could just use it in the beginning of the fight, inflicting massive damage and taking you completely by surprise since he's invisible and you can hear him but you have no idea where he's coming from.

Or he could just target a weaker teammate. On the other side of the map, where you can't reach in time because you desperately need to farm to recover from the Nemean Lion investment. And you can't exactly match his mobility. You get the idea.

And the last most annoying thing I hear: He's not good in teamfights. He can target the squishiest member, probably dying in the process, but a 1 for 1 is worse for you, since he'll probably target someone like He Bo or Poseidon.

[/rant]

Renowned (112)
Posts: 4262
View My Blog

Oh, and lets not forget that he has one of the best minion clearing skills out there. His stupid Decoy, if maxed early, gives him the last hit on 90% of the wave. 20-30 last hits isn't much. 80-90 is.

Renowned (112)
Posts: 4262
View My Blog

Well, trying to be as fact-based at possible, I'm going to try to play Devil's Advocate and refute all your points so we can get a discussion going.

Let me start: Maxing decoy isn't good for Loki. He may last hit easily, but he'll run out of mana exceptionally fast, and his other abilites will not be good. He's setting himself up as an easy kill because regular basic attack Loki isn't scary at all, and he's squishy without vanish.

A CC'd Loki IS an easy kill, you just have to be reactive. Wait for him to vanish - if he uses it to attempt to jump you, you have a free CC that he cannot escape, and will likely end in his death.

Itemizing around one person is NOT A BAD THING! EVER! You are essentially itemizing to make an entire member of their team useless around you. That is why everyone gets rank 3 beads against Ares. He becomes useless. You're doing the same for Loki, because if he decides to jump into your team to attack you, if you survive, he WILL die. Loki is a very, very risky champion, because you need Vanish to initiate, and you need it to escape (unless he burns ult, but that's not productive and very counter-intuitive, trust me). As such, once he jumps you, he's dead meat.

My suggestion: Get a Hide, get Aegis, and get your team to stick together. Loki targets isolated targets. As a person who has him as one of his 8 gods in a mastery rank, I know that a grouped together team is a nightmare as a Loki player. You cannot initiate for anything.

Also, trust me, almost no Loki builds lifesteal. None of the items are damage-efficient enough to purchase, since Loki either 100-0's someone or doesn't kill them. He'll build something like, Boots, Executioner, Deathbringer, Rage, Titan's Bane, Qin's/Hydra's. You really don't have room - soul eater isn't a very good item for damage, and eye of retaliation doesn't give any attack speed or useful procs (you don't engage as Loki with low health).

All in all, he's not a bad ganker, but if itemized around is completely useless, and a free kill when he is focused. Ne zha can slow your team, stun someone on a non-ult cooldown, then take someone out of the fight for a solid 4 or 5 seconds, while ALSO tearing apart your team due to his base damage. Fenrir has an ult that secures a kill, then a combo (3-2-1) that kills another for basically free. Etc etc.

I think Devil's Advocate is over.

-Demolibium

Awards Showcase

Show more awards

Eminent (158)
Posts: 2975
View My Blog

Yeh I dnt rally have a problem with loki I think he is fine where he is..
When ever i play against a loki I see him as an easy kill unless he gets fed.
I do however have many problems and rage moments with ne zah's and fraya's >:(
Freya is a pain in the *** to lane against and ne zah is an inevitable steam roll if the game drags out

Remarkable (5)
Posts: 337

He doesn't need any nerf , if you are careful enough Loki isn't an issue , if he tries to kill and misses and your team is grouped up he is like dead already .

Established (17)
Posts: 711

Well the most important thing when you play against Loki is: USE YOUR HEADSET!!

I mostly play mages or tanks, and on Mages I hear his Vanish and Slither, Heal, Slow, Escape or whatever my god has right away to a safer spot.
Moving is the keyspot!
Even if Loki Ults on me I can escape 50% without dieing due to fast reactions.

Which leads to a fair point. 50%.. So he still get kills, which makes himsnowball in pretty much every match. I'm a total failure at non-ranged meeles and especially on Assassins, but even I managed to get about 8/9 kills in an Arenamatch.

So he can be dodged quite easy (especially with CC), but every Loki snowballs. Had a guy playing Loki for the second time in a Conquest as a Jungler. Well I had "only" 2 or 3 deaths to him, but he ended up with 20/0.

So something on Loki has to be OP.

Greetings

Notable (4)
Posts: 267

also if you hear the vanish on the initiation just start strafing with your back right on the wall he will do significantly less dmg if he even goes for you usuelly they will back off if they cant get the backstab vanish

Remarkable (6)
Posts: 149

wrote:

1. Maxing decoy isn't good for Loki. He may last hit easily, but he'll run out of mana exceptionally fast, and his other abilites will not be good. He's setting himself up as an easy kill because regular basic attack Loki isn't scary at all, and he's squishy without vanish.

2. A CC'd Loki IS an easy kill, you just have to be reactive. Wait for him to vanish - if he uses it to attempt to jump you, you have a free CC that he cannot escape, and will likely end in his death.

3. Itemizing around one person is NOT A BAD THING! EVER! You are essentially itemizing to make an entire member of their team useless around you. That is why everyone gets rank 3 beads against Ares. He becomes useless. You're doing the same for Loki, because if he decides to jump into your team to attack you, if you survive, he WILL die. Loki is a very, very risky champion, because you need Vanish to initiate, and you need it to escape (unless he burns ult, but that's not productive and very counter-intuitive, trust me). As such, once he jumps you, he's dead meat.

4. My suggestion: Get a Hide, get Aegis, and get your team to stick together. Loki targets isolated targets. As a person who has him as one of his 8 gods in a mastery rank, I know that a grouped together team is a nightmare as a Loki player. You cannot initiate for anything.

5. Also, trust me, almost no Loki builds lifesteal. None of the items are damage-efficient enough to purchase, since Loki either 100-0's someone or doesn't kill them. He'll build something like, Boots, Executioner, Deathbringer, Rage, Titan's Bane, Qin's/Hydra's. You really don't have room - soul eater isn't a very good item for damage, and eye of retaliation doesn't give any attack speed or useful procs (you don't engage as Loki with low health).

6. All in all, he's not a bad ganker, but if itemized around is completely useless, and a free kill when he is focused. Ne zha can slow your team, stun someone on a non-ult cooldown, then take someone out of the fight for a solid 4 or 5 seconds, while ALSO tearing apart your team due to his base damage. Fenrir has an ult that secures a kill, then a combo (3-2-1) that kills another for basically free. Etc etc.

I. I agree to some extent, but it still really pisses me off that one of the best assassins in the game has a great minion clearing move that also helps him avoid damage.

II. If you are playing a god with good CC, and are laning with a partner or are supported by a jungler, then yes, that will work. Unfortunately, this isn't always an option. You could be soloing, you could be the jungler being counter-jungled, or you simply might not have any CC worth mentioning. If you are alone, a god with a high DPS like Loki can easily kill you outside of a tower. Which he'll just push with Decoy.

My personal experience: I was Athena (bruiser), in a Cup Runneth Over match, and had Hide + Breastplate of Valor (Focused Void, ShoesofF, RodofT, Poly) as my items. With over 200 P.Def and Hide's passive, and around 300 MP, I had an excellent advantage against the enemy Loki, who was using a crit build. As expected, he ambushed me while I was (falsely recalling away from my team, reasoning that otherwise he'd stay back, since he could see my build as well as I could see his), getting behind me. I used my shield wall, hit him once with Reach + Polynomicon, taunted him, and hit him again with Reach. At this point, he was about 1/6 HP. He decided to use his ult on me, stunning me and teleporting behind me. A quick Fist of the Gods and Preemptive Strike + Poly was enough to kill him, but I died due to me having a few hundred health, an enemy coming to assist, and my escape being spent.

My point is, I did come out on top in that fight, in exchange for sacrificing magical defense, getting killed alongside him, and being a god that seems designed to kill Loki. My entire frustration with Loki is that there seems to be few strategies against him. This will be expanded in #3 below.

III. Yes, any god can get beads for a 1100 investment. Yes, this significantly cripples Ares (although I cannot say it makes him entirely useless). However, Hide is 2250 gold spent, and this will hamper another carry's build significantly. I was fortunate enough to be a bruiser in that fight, and I probably wouldn't have survived using a similar build if I was, say, Ao.

That, I think, is the crux of the problem. Against, say, Poseidon, Aegis would work pretty well, or speed, or stealth. Against Chang'e, careful distribution of CC and waiting for her free Aegis to be spent would work. But against Loki, speaking from the perspective of being a non-optimal god, there are very little tactics that can counter him, just gold and specialization. I hope you understand what I am trying to say.

If it helps, think of this as if you were in a random conquest match. You wanted to play as, say, Xbalanque, and Loki's presence is an unwelcome surprise. Your options, therefore, are rather limited.

IV. Obviously, you cannot stay together indefinitely and hope to be as productive. In the laning phases of the game, where staying as a large group is not an option, even in cells of two you are vulnerable. He will target (and kill) another squishy, removing most of the 2-god cell's DPS, in a few seconds. Then the other support might pull out some CC, perhaps even an ult. Since very few AoE ults/skills from a non-squishy are capable of killing quickly from near-total health, and those that do (Ares, Guan, Bacchus, Hades, Sobek, etc) can usually be countered with P.Beads.

And like you said, Loki targets the isolated. With his DPS, "isolated" means any two-second window, such as recalling, or returning to a tower, or grabbing a buff camp. The simple fact is, he's faster, difficult to see coming, and complete Paranoia fuel since you have to split from your group sooner or later. Hell, even taking a few extra moments to walk to the center of your tower to recall could damage your team, even if Loki is nowhere near you.

V. I don't know...I've seen a few Lokis go easy on the penetration (you'll be targeting squishies, after all) and get the Devourer's Gloves, which is pretty easy to get stacks for with the previously mentioned Decoy. It's cheap, gives as much P.Power as the Deathbringer, a respectable 20% lifesteal, and as you said, the Eye's passive isn't worth it.

VI. He's...the cleanup crew. Once someone like Hades or Poseidon disrupts a team, he's the one finishing off the half-health enemies faster than you could blink. He's the one who chases down the ones who run away, or heck, his stun could be used at a key moment, like taking down a healer. He's not Agni, but he's better than nothing. IMO, he should be nothing. Someone who specializes so much in single ganks should not be better than nothing.

Renowned (112)
Posts: 4262
View My Blog

Agree with the OP, too much reward for not enough skill needed to play as Loki.

Vanish is a giant crutch for being out of position.

Notable (2)
Posts: 31

Anyone who thinks Loki is a low-skill god is deluding themselves, most people who start using are usually terrible with him for a while. You need to know when to play aggressive, when to stay back, when to commit or retreat... Everything you do with Loki happens in seconds, because he is kill or get killed. If you make a mistake, you might not even have the time to rectify it due to how fast you will die.

Like most assassins, he also relies a lot on getting a few kills early on in order to pick up momentum. If he can't manage that, he usually won't make much of an impact on the outcome of the match.

As Raventhor said earlier, Decoy is only good as a farming tool, and little else. It almost never helps him kill anyone due to the huge delay between setting up and popping. Used repeatedly, it eats up his mana, which he has little of, and he needs to be able to use at least two skill to effectively gank, three if he needs the boost from Aimed Strike. That's at least 220 mana needed to kill someone, and Decoy costs more mana as it's ranked up to improve his farming.

is not as failsafe as you make it out to be. He still needs to travel towards you before he starts attacking, and that path is not too difficult to predict most of the time. He's also not invincible while stealthed either, and if you can take an educated guess as to his location, you can catch him with your own skills. I'll have you know I've actually snatched stealthing Lokis before with simply because I anticipated their position. If you see him , you hear the poofing noise, you should have time to react.

I am going to echo the fact that is squishy, squishy, squishy. He absolutely must kill his targets fast, for every second he spends near his enemies puts him at greater risk. He needs to get in and out fast before the enemy focuses him, and this is why is so effective at countering him. Those two seconds you are invulnerable could be all the time your team needs to close in on Loki, gang up on him with CC and nukes, and kill him. Even if he does manage to kill you from Aegis wearing off, it's much better trade if a fed Loki is dead, as odds are he is carrying the enemy team.

He is a totally balanced god. He's deadly in skilled hands, but he can be countered if you play smart around him and deny him opportunities to get fed, at which point he becomes dead weight for his team.

Waiting on a good new MOBA, please.

<Veteran>

Prominent (29)
Posts: 588
View My Blog

Why Loki Needs a Nerf

Awards Showcase

Quick Reply

SmiteFire & Smite

Smite Gods