Hydra's Lament f*cking sucks! :: Page 2

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wrote:

Raventhor... *sighs* not again.

Have you done any testing on this? The damage for Hydra's isn't simply added to the overall damage, it's reduced separately from the damage of the main basic attack. Thanatos, level 20, on practice Ra, with no other item except the HL, deals far less than 103 damage. He deals freaking 65 damage! 65! And that's on a naked Ra with no items!

With 15 flat penetration, he deals 83 damage. Woohoo, 83 damage. At that point, why not just buy the Executioner for the defense shred? Why not buy Rage for doubled damage? Or hell, even the Deathbringer, as even a 20% chance of inflicting 250% damage is better than this ****.

Remember, this is not a flat number added to your damage on an enemy god. This number is reduced by defenses before being added. And unlike , this number doesn't have the backing of a bigger number behind it.

Raventhor, don't make me assume that you simply make inane comments without doing any research, or I will be very sad. (I thought of making another Phoenix Wright-themed response, but I realized that it wasn't worth it.)

Calm the **** down.

Raventhor is entirely in the right. He is operating with the base damage number, which is entirely reasonable considering you didn't specify you took protections into account. We always consider base damage rather than mitigated damage unless specified otherwise, due to the fact that it is easier to work with and doesn't run into problems regarding how much penetration you have or how many protections the target has. If you want to use mitigated numbers without specifying what god you play, your pen, and your target's prot, how can you expect anyone to understand what you're talking about?

As for your comments about the weapon itself, you went with very low to zero penetration values against a target at a high level, hence with good natural phys prot. If you used a more typical physical caster build with maxed or near maxed pen you would see better results. You also fail to take into consideration the weapon's base stats, at least that's what it looks like when you ask why pick a Hydra's over an Executioner due to a poor passive, even though the former provides 66% more physical power and has CDR, hence having very different strengths.

All that said, I agree that the Hydra's passive is pretty underwhelming and isn't nearly worth the investment on its own.

Memorable (10)
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You buy Poly because of the passive and Hydra's Lament because of stats.

Notable (2)
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wrote:

Calm the **** down.

Raventhor is entirely in the right. He is operating with the base damage number, which is entirely reasonable considering you didn't specify you took protections into account. We always consider base damage rather than mitigated damage unless specified otherwise, due to the fact that it is easier to work with and doesn't run into problems regarding how much penetration you have or how many protections the target has. If you want to use mitigated numbers without specifying what god you play, your pen, and your target's prot, how can you expect anyone to understand what you're talking about?

As for your comments about the weapon itself, you went with very low to zero penetration values against a target at a high level, hence with good natural phys prot. If you used a more typical physical caster build with maxed or near maxed pen you would see better results. You also fail to take into consideration the weapon's base stats, at least that's what it looks like when you ask why pick a Hydra's over an Executioner due to a poor passive, even though the former provides 66% more physical power and has CDR, hence having very different strengths.

All that said, I agree that the Hydra's passive is pretty underwhelming and isn't nearly worth the investment on its own.

I thought that people, when they see a number as low as 82, they'd automatically assume that protections were taken into account. How the hell would you assume that 82 was the base damage number? Seriously, you'd think that with the damage being lower than the base power of 99% of the gods in the game, people would know that it includes protections into account. Common sense, people. Raventhor is in the right, my foot.

And if you've read the second post, you'd see that I said it was a minion at level 20 as Thanatos, following Doc_Nick's guide to the letter.

And are you seriously saying that Ra has decent physical protections at level 20 with no items? 60 pp is not good. It is one of the lowest in the game. In fact, Kripox, if you'd looked at the numbers, it's lower than a lot of other mages', maybe even the worst.

And as for the Executioner vs HL; If you are going to be casting between basic attacks, then it is marginally more effective against most targets to reduce protections than adding damage. Not all builds go for maxed penetration when one defense shred item does the same thing or better. And if you want cooldown, you'd go for Ninja Tabi or Jotunn's Wrath. You don't buy an endgame item for 15% cooldown, 50 power, and this passive.

With absolute maxed penetration (50), Thanatos deals 94 damage with Hydra's Lament against a naked Ra at both being level 20. I repeat, against 60 physical protections, 50 penetration and 103.7 base damage, deals 94 damage. It is definitely not worth it to burn gold to get more penetration, tabi excluded, for an increase of 22 damage, when a level 20 Ra with no items has 1745 HP. I still stand by my initial point.

And if you're going to try to use this items as Loki, who has a very high attack speed, you're better off building crits. This passive can fire only once every 2 seconds, and Loki with attack speed and crits can attack several times in that intervening time. As for cooldown, you can always get Ninja Tabi + Jotunn's Wrath. Crits double damage, while HL adds around 95, at best, at a time where single basic attacks can deal over 200 damage.

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Its better for gods like Tyr or Hun Batz. Gods that rely more on abilities than auto attacks.

Notable (1)
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Why build Loki attack speed? You build Hydra's because he needs to kill something in a 3 second window and gtfo, not stand and have ridiculous sustain damage.

As for the 82 damage, of course I thought it was low, hence why you were assumed wrong. You *have* to say you're accounting for physical protection, because that adds PP and Physical Penetration to the weighing factors.

Second, why only go for executioner or only go for Hydra's? Do both.

Lastly, it's your preference, but the damage can definitely be good enough to fit into an assassin's build, or someone who simply doesn't benefit from much attack speed, but rather one or two heavy auto attacks. If you want attack speed/crit Loki, do it. Some play AD caster Loki, which this item definitely preferences.

It's about preferences, man. It provides a different playstyle than "spam all your abilities" or "F*** ABILITIES! Auto attacks for days!". It provides the synergy for gods who are already trying to synergize these two playstyles, or people who want to make them do it. Thus, it is a matter of preference, and the item does not "suck" or "kill everything", it's a matter of playstyle. (BTW, Dignitas's Lassiz plays jungle Loki with Hydra's. And he's the captain of the best team in the world atm [Even if Denial is a close rival])

-Demolibium

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Eminent (158)
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Also, don't assume I did no research, as I guarantee I've done more and currently do more than you ever will (I have a reputation and expertise on here to uphold). You can't say I do no research, and nearly insult me, when you're giving incomplete info. Never assume on behalf of the aggressor, it shows ignorance and a non-sequitur argument path by making assumptions on me based of your misguided thoughts. I prefer conversations, not arguments, so please attempt to refrain from making the atmosphere....hostile.

That is, don't assume I did no research because you fail to inform us you're taking into account things that are not definite (That is, penetration or protections, as that gives THREE variables [penetration, protections, and base physical power], and is not what we should preemptively take into account)

-Demolibium

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wrote:

Well, think again. Relying on people's common sense to figure out what you intend to say is fairly unreliable to say the least. Specify more closely and there will be no misunderstandings. If you don't it quite simply looks like you don't know what you're talking about.

EDIT: I see you did specify the target here in the previous post. This first paragraph here is just a general guideline for everyone here.

Yes, Ra has decent physical prot in this instance. 60 prot is good when you consider the attacker has no pen. Of course, it isn't good if by good one means good against a properly built attacker, but my point here was primarily that a high level god will always have enough prot to make attacks not backed by pen very underwhelming.

Next, HL vs Exe: I don't cast between basics, I use basics when I don't cast. Like I said, I only run HL on Loki, a melee god. Melee gods are the only ones I've ever seen use the item, and these gods have a problem in that their basics are much less reliable than ranged gods's basics due to limited range and difficulty sticking to the target, hence they rely primarily on abilities. The HL is a caster item, the executioner is a basic attacking item.

Also, I do in fact get an endgame item for those stats. I already maxed my pen, and HL gives me a lot of power and maxes my CDR, which I find very valuable on a physical caster. I could use Ninja Tabi, sure, but that would postpone my early game pen and make maxing both pen and CDR less efficient. The Hydra's passive is just a small bonus to me. (Side note, your Thanatos didn't have . It's pretty important for max pen.)

Remember, I use no basic attacking items due to basic attaking with Loki being a bad idea. I go in, kill the target as quickly as possible, and get out. Max pen and lots of power gives me more reliable damage at a lower cost than a crit build, while losing out on sustained damage. This is fine, as I don't want to stay in the fight and deal sustained damage anyway. Loki is all burst, and the pen makes his , Aimed Strike and more powerful than crits do.

Crit Loki is just not worth it against an enemy that actually focuses you.

__________________________________________________________________________________________

Now, can we all calm down and try to get along? There's been a tad too much unnecessary anger till now tbh. No point in getting mad over this.

Memorable (10)
Posts: 162

Plz change Hydra' Lament to deal 100 percent of your current physical power or something and remove the cdr on it and lover the physical power. The 125 percent of your base physical power is kind of a joke.

, which has the highest base damage in the game (40) gets 40*1,25=50 damage from it...

But the physical power and cdr makes it viable on IMO, Vanish-->basic attack-->Aimed Strike-->basic attack. that will give you an extra 95 damage (so not to much, but it's at least something).

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Distinguished (69)
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Actually, Anhur's base is only 40 at lvl 1, and increases by 3 per level. You always make the calc from your current level, so it isn't quite as weak as you think.

Memorable (10)
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wrote:

Actually, Anhur's base is only 40 at lvl 1, and increases by 3 per level. You always make the calc from your current level, so it isn't quite as weak as you think.

Ohh, I'm pretty sure it was just from base at lvl 0 before.
But that makes it even more viable :)
Thx, just tried it and you are right (base is 40 +2,5 btw, so 42,5 at lvl 1).

So lets say you get at lvl 17 and do the same combo:
base damage= 38+(17*2,4)=78,8

Hydra passive gives you 98,5 damage per proc so 196/198 depending on how the 98,5 damage is rounded (up or down).

Again thx for opening my eyes to the wonderful world that is again :)

IGN: Marki

Jungle & Support main.

Casually tryharding ranked now and again.

Make fun of my bad plays on Twitch ;)
Is only pixels, why you haf to be mad?

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Hydra's Lament f*cking sucks!

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