Let's Make Patch Notes - Assassins :: Page 3

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wrote:

Snip

This reply is a little late, thanks to some IRL problems.

"Get close before stunning him." "Try to get the upper hand on him." "[Use wukong's stun-knockup combo]". More generic advice.

Let me give an example of what does have counterplay: vs .

Example

As you can see, god engagements are quite complicated, and even the above explanation is probably missing something. In Nu Wa vs Fenrir, while Nu Wa doesn't always win, she has an answer to nearly everything Fenrir can throw at her, if she plays right, because Fenrir is a god with weaknesses. Fenrir, therefore, is a god with counterplay.

Now, about Thanatos...unlike most assassins, his damage can come from range, and unlike , he actually deals decent damage at range. That already means he bypasses the traditional weakness of melee assassins: Being melee.

His two main CC abilities, and , may as well be undodgeable.

His just eliminates counterplay potential by making him nearly unescapable.

His ultimate already forces you to buy Aegis, and now, you need sprint.

And that's not even mentioning his passive, which makes him tower dive, not completely risk-free, but certain far less riskier than anyone else.

His entire kit seems to revolve around removing counterplay options. So damn annoying.

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HFB, Ragnarok, IMO, is balanced, out of the fact that there is a hundred other "USE ACTIVE OR DIE" ultimates out there, and relatively speaking, is quite tame.

is countered handily by , but...yeah. That said, considering how everyone and their grandmother has some hard CC to interrupt it, it's not really that much of a problem. However, I don't mind reducing it's base damage slightly, but it'll slow Fenrir's clear speeds.

BMO, your argument isn't really sound. Yeah, a fed Freya is arguably deadlier than a fed Thanatos (I disagree, but still), but it is way easier for Thanatos to get kills, than Freya can. And "needing skill to play" should not be a significant factor in terms of game balance.

Penta, I don't really think having a leap will save you unless you can get a good feel for the enemy Thanatos' playstyle. I mean, he's a rocket engine while ultimate, and it's not much trouble for him to simply wait for you to leap before coming down. Not to mention he could probably burst you down even without his ultimate, on top of his speed buff...

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For Fenrir, I'd just like to see having a "limitation" of bites you can miss. It's absurd that you can just spam the mouse and hope you'll catch them, after 15 bites. It's one thing to make a skill easy to land, it's another thing discouraging players from aiming and encouraging to spam hoping they'll hit. We all know Nemesis' ult is sort of broken in its mechanics, in the sense that you literally choose your target without needing to aim...

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That doesn't really fix any balance issues though...it just makes it harder for people to play him without changing things.

Honestly, I'm not sure if he's weak or not. I mean, when you look at the other top tier junglers, , , and , they are free from limitations that Fenrir doesn't have. Fenrir is always stuck in melee range, his abilities are easily interrupted, and his damage falls off badly late game, despite the 200% physical power scalings, because it's over 2 seconds and sacrifices his positioning. Not to mention he lacks on-demand CC.

And when you consider that the OTHER early game assassin, Thanatos, has a better late AND early game than Fenrir, well...something's wrong.

To solve the on-demand CC problem, I propose making treat the next ability you cast as if it had full runes (without actually granting rune stacks). That solves the on-demand CC problem. It also forces him to use one of his escapes for CC, which seems fair, to me.

Now, for Brutalize. It has a few problems. One is how easy it is to interrupt, making it less useful even in the early game. And if we make it harder to counter, it's a ridiculously strong damage skill that's hard to counter, which is bad.

Like so many things in Smite, Brutalize is in a design trap. Change one thing, and it becomes too powerful, or useless. Right now, it deals so much damage that making Fenrir immune to CC while casting it would be broken, but at the same time, it's too easily interruptible. I...don't know what to do here.

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How about giving him damage reduction or protections when he uses ? After all, if you don't build Fenrir as a bruiser late game, you'll die instantly. Maybe only at full runes he gets the protection/damage reduction bonus, and the additional damage to targets nearby will be reduced from 75% to 50%?

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wrote:

is countered handily by , but...yeah. That said, considering how everyone and their grandmother has some hard CC to interrupt it, it's not really that much of a problem. However, I don't mind reducing it's base damage slightly, but it'll slow Fenrir's clear speeds.

...but isn't everything countered by in a way? I feel like there simply needs to be a way to get out of it when he jumps on you. Like, making stuns and cc effects work on him while he is in (Or maybe they already do that... I haven't noticed it happening yet), or making dashes cancel it or something. If there was just some way to avoid the damage, then I feel like would be in a perfect state.

Also, for Ragnorok, my mind farted and forgot about beads and all that jazz.

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@ Jordenito: How about seething how granting protections? Seems less awkward.

@ HFB: Yeah, that's the ******** problem. In Smite, everything deals so much damage, CC's for so long, that we are forced to become even more extreme to survive. And all this removes counterplay.

Honestly, I don't think needs to be more counterable then it already is. But actually, making leaps cancel it won't be that bad. It just needs something else to compensate, because right now, I believe that Fenrir honestly is one of the worst assassins in Smite.

His clear speed is good, but not great. Thanatos and Hun Batz clear quicker.

His ganks can be countered by anyone with hard CC, as well as any ranged characters. Not to mention his lack of CC really hurts him.

His ultimate is strong...but that's all he's good for late game, not to mention how easy it is to counter.

His main damage skill is all he has in terms of damage, not to mention he sacrifices his positioning. Gank duo lane, and you'll be stunned to death. Gank mid lane, where everyone and their mother has hard CC? Impossible, not to mention suicidal if Agni dashes into his tower. And solo lane is...solo lane.

He has three escapes, but he's also incredibly mana hungry.

I remember when Fenrir used to be ridiculously overpowered. And now, ironically, Power Creep has made him pretty bad. There is little he can do that another jungler can't, and he suffers from too many weaknesses that other junglers don't have.

Thanatos has his ability damage and a better early game, with more sustain, more options for engagement, and better late game power.

Arachne also has comparable damage, but even she scales better late game, due to her AoE CC and spammable ultimate.

Hun Batz is also a walking ultimate late game, but at least he has crits! And a reliable way to hit them! And just as many gap closers as Fenrir! Fenrir crits doesn't work well because Brutalize essentially becomes "time where you can't crit."

Okay, let me summarize. Let's try to give Fenrir his own niche.

Arachne is the puller. Bakasura has true damage. Bastet has her tick damage and cats and incredible mobility. Freya has her Banish and ranged basics and incredible basic damage. Batz has a teleport, a leap, and probably the strongest BALANCED ultimate in the game. Kali shreds people, Loki has stealth, Mercury has his one-shot crits and Ne Zha is a girl. Thanatos uses health, Thor has his wall, his unique escape, and his ultimate.

What should we give Fenrir, to give him a niche?

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Personally, I vote for making him the only assassin who can become a bruiser without buying protection items, if only temporarily, through his buff. The lifesteal would also be a cool mechanic, making himself tanky through lifesteal.

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I think that's a pretty suitable niche to him. Moving on?

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Well, I want to give at least HiFromBuddha a chance to say something, before we move on. We can work on the specifics of the change later, though.

What about ? How shall we change him? Does he need a change?

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