Season 8 Starter Items: Carry Edition - Bran's Thoughts

Forum » Theory Crafting » Season 8 Starter Items: Carry Edition - Bran's Thoughts 13 posts - page 1 of 2

Hey everyone,

Thought I'd put together some thoughts on the new starter items. I'll go over my thoughts on the strengths of the original states (before any adjustments due to PTS) as well as who I think might use them well.

I'm going to start with the Carry starters, and over the next few days get to the rest of them.

*NOTE ON HEALING / HEALTH RESTORE / LIFESTEAL* One big thing I tested in PTS is how the global anti-heal aura works. You'll see the "Not Brawling" healing debuff (30% anti-heal) near the bottom (or wherever you might have placed debuff notifications in a custom HUD). This effect is active until you have damaged or been damaged by an enemy god. Minions do NOT count.

I've confirmed that healing abilities and lifesteal are in fact affected by the debuff. However, "health restore" (such as what we'll see in / ) is NOT the same as healing, and is NOT affected by this debuff (or by anti-heal in general). That makes health restore much more reliable, though not necessarily stronger than healing or lifesteal in all cases. I'll discuss below.

Carry Starters

Death's Toll	Main Purpose: Reliable Health / Mana Sustain Best for: Carries that are looking for general sustain in the early game. Focus early game on clearing waves and nearby camps, and staying out as long as possible, backing optimally when you have enough gold to buy a full item. Due to having some mana sustain, can work for both basic-attack and hybrid/ability-based carries. Bran's Thoughts: Coming back to SMITE is a version that's similar to the previous showing of this item before Blessings were created. It's going to be difficult to pass this one up, as it provides some helpful early health and mana sustain. It won't provide you with any added function for boxing, and in the starting form isn't a substitute for gods that typically pick up Devourer's Gauntlet early. Best if you're mostly looking to farm efficiently. I can see this being used situationally in the Solo lane, and perhaps even by some Mid-laners. Expected Starts: Death's Toll + Spiked Gauntlet + 4-6 potions (building into Devourer's Gauntlet) Death's Toll + Morningstar + 4-6 potions (building into Transcendence)

Upgrade Options Death's Embrace Death's Temper Death's Embrace: This seems like a decently strong item, that is basically an enhanced version of Death's Toll. The OP stat is the 80 physical power (2nd only to Transcendence). Basics restore 3% of health and mana for each basic hit, which is ~60 health/mana per hit for the average squishy carry (~2,000 health). If your god has 2.0 AS, that's around 120 health per second (as long as you hit). Now it's important to note that this is HEALTH RESTORE, not healing/lifesteal. It is NOT affected by anti-heal (from items or the global aura), which makes this a very reliable source of health (and mana). That said, in a fight with enemy gods, and you're not affected by any anti-heal (abilities or items), this healing can be outperformed by strong enough lifesteal either from high power (> 200 or so) or from critical strike builds. I'm guessing this gets used mostly by hybrid carries rather than full basic-attack carries. Could work well with Transcendence builds with high AS on gods that don't have major AS steroids. Also should get use in Solo by basic attackers, unless (and we should) see a significant nerf to this upgrade. Death's Temper: This upgrade loses the sustain function, instead functioning similarly to Doom Orb or Talisman of Energy, in that it gives you a buff as enemies - including minions - die close to you (meaning you don't have to last-hit). But while those items give you a boost of MS, this one gives you a buff to your basic attack damage output. Stacking 10x, you can see up to a 35% increase in damage output. This is an interesting alternative to going with a crit build, for example, though I'm guessing this could also boost crit damage very significantly. The application of the stacks is a bit unreliable depending on when teamfights break out, but the fact that this provides attack speed should make it work very well with Devourer's Gauntlet-based builds using crit or extreme AS builds w/ Qin's Sais + Silverbranch Bow.

Gilded Arrow	Main Purpose: Farming Best for: Carries that rely more on health sustain from their kit but still mostly want to focus on farming over boxing in the early game. Jing Wei can fit into this category because of her relatively weaker early game + her ability to back and get back to lane quickly. Bran's Thoughts: This has some decent mana sustain but no health sustain, making it difficult to exchange damage early and heal back up from waves. Healing Potions will definitely be needed. One bonus here is an increase to basic attack damage (similar to Hunter's Blessing), which is slightly better for basics than the 10 power Death's Toll provides, but less helpful for ability damage (since it won't provide any scaling boost). Another bonus is for early farming, where you can get bonus gold; that's the stat that is being marketed for this item. That bonus gold is going to be helpful, but not incredibly advantageous. You could see as much as 60 bonus gold per minute (likely closer to 40). Not enough to make it appealing IMO compared to the Death's Toll tree. Finally we see one decent advantage over Death's Toll in that when you kill secure that marked target, you get a 20% AS boost. While laning and potentially looking to box, that AS boost can provide a helpful DPS increase as you switch from the minion wave immediately to attacking the enemy gods. Hopefully the upgrades offer some nice bonuses, as mostly this seems a bit underwhelming compared to Death's Toll. Expected Starts: I don't expect it to be used much with Transcendence builds. It's got a definite basic attack focus in the base item and the upgrades. Gilded Arrow + Spiked Gauntlet + 4-6 potions (building into Devourer's Gauntlet)

Upgrade Options Diamond Arrow Ornate Arrow Diamond Arrow: Provides a fairly hefty 80 basic attack damage, but the more interesting part is the stacking attack speed (up to 3 stacks and 60% (!!!) AS). Hit a jungle camp on the way to a teamfight (or get a kill in a teamfight) and you'll have a very strong boost to your damage potential, especially late-game if you build into Silverbranch Bow. The requirement of getting kills to activate the passive makes it less appealing, however. I see this being used somewhat rarely in its current state, unless you're looking to take advantage of a major overcap Silver build. Ornate Arrow: This is also of situational benefit, as you need to have gold in your pocket to get the AS and Crit % benefit from the passive. However, part of the passive means you'll gain gold 20% more quickly, which can also be nice as you get to late-game, as you'll be able to finish your build and work toward the newly-buffed Elixir of Power / Elixir of Defense. You'll reach max stacks of 25 at 2,500 gold, which you hopefully won't have too long since you should get the next item in your build if you have that much. But perhaps late-game, those max stacks can equate to 25% attack speed and 20% critical strike chance. Both are solid stats, but nothing earth-shattering. All in all, I don't think the Gilded Arrow tree will see as much use as the others.

Leather Cowl	Main Purpose: Utility (Attack Speed / Movement Speed) Best for: Carries where multiple teammates have basic attack function, and when they want more MS in general. Bran's Thoughts: This is by far the most interesting carry starter for me. Has a bit of everything...early power, lifesteal, and attack speed. In early laning, you'll pretty much always be with the Support, so you'll actually be getting 15% AS, which is nice. You'll get a bit of an MS boost when you back for items and get back to lane, which is not a bad thing considering the increased size of the map. One thing to keep in mind, when not boxing an enemy god, you're looking at 7% lifesteal, not 10%, due to the global anti-heal aura. Not great for sustain, but better than nothing. I see this being used for both Devo's and Trans builds. Expected Starts: Leather Cowl + Spiked Gauntlet + 4-6 potions (building into Devourer's Gauntlet) Leather Cowl + Morningstar + 4-6 potions (building into Transcendence)

Upgrade Options Hunter's Cowl Leader's Cowl Hunter's Cowl: As with the starter form, this is the more interesting upgrade for me. Basically an enhanced form of Leather Cowl, it provides good power, decent lifesteal, and good attack speed. However, the AS boost changes from just affecting you when near teammates to affecting ALL nearby teammates. This is a built-in Shogun's Kusari passive!!! Great great great for basic-attack team comps and for taking down structures and other objectives. And if you're caught in a vulnerable position away from teammates (or are rushing to meet them), the 10% MS is a very healthy stat. Look for this to be used quite often. Leader's Cowl: The stats are a bit weird here. Mediocre power, but a significant health boost. The passive either does nothing or gives your outnumbered situation (YOU outnumber the ENEMY) a fairly nice power boost. Basically, if you've got a numbers advantage, you increase that advantage. Could help in ganking situations, or if you catch some enemies out, you might be able to finish them or force them to retreat more quickly before their teammates get there, helping to maintain the advantage. While I can see the appeal, it's not enough for me to really want this over Hunter's Cowl.

So, what are your thoughts? Did I hit the mark, or am I really missing the point of these?

Awards Showcase

Show more awards

Mythical (400)
Posts: 8820
View My Blog

Gonna slightly high-jack this threat to move it into hunter itemization. as their items see the most changes and mostly add to the discussion.

So I think will become the defacto item again. And HR missed their mark with a lot of the upgraded starters that make it that way. As their goal is to not sell starters we are once again left with 6 item slots and their stats being quite good when you upgrade them ( taking the record for physical power using only stats) you're gonna keep them. I am just curious if it might shows its face in solo lane like it did in S1-S2. And I expect potential nerfs before S* too.

So the reason is going to be the defacto is that it's terribly hard to punish sustain and with it having the best one as it's not affected by the global anti heal it is just too good. The biggest reason for me to not see the other is pretty much that while their T1 are decently balanced their upgrades are not. I will explain as I go over them.

Let's start with it has a nice concept, a bit like the cull from LoL that the greed this item provides is punishable by the no sustain it provides. The AS steroid is a bit out of place as this is a farming item but it's fine as it allows for a bit of aggression. However, it's easy to play around it for the opponent especially if they can see the marked minion or a visual of your increased AS.

Now the upgrades. Sad to say but I think this T1 is going to be bottom of the list compared to the other ones because of the stats on the upgrades and it being upgradable at lvl 20.

Well probably the weakest one of all of them. It provides you with 80 AA damage and 50 health. while it sounds like a lot it's only great for mages compared to cause of how AA scaling works. The low health of the item makes it a bad item stat-wise compared to your other options. Now the passive 60% attack speed will try to make up for it, but attack speed is still an easily gained stat so it requires . The gold generation will still provide a boost but at lvl 20 the increased gain has a lot less value and if hyper late game is reached it loses almost all value. Honestly, I do not see a reason to grab this one over ornate

It's a bit more interesting as it still provides a gold increase albeit lower. Stats are imo better than it's main competitor, , the -20 AA hit is worth having 100 more health. while you gain less gold from last hitting minions in the stage of the game where mages one shot them for you and kills and assist provide you more gold it's even if maybe not better than diamond. The rest of the passive is a bit meh as at most you won't gain a lot of benefit from those stats without "overstaying" or "under buying" in your build, and you also need to rebuild the stats after grabbing a 3k and 500 pots wards every time. IMO better than diamond but it also forces a crit build/steroid to gain more efficiency. And with the changes to the other items, I feel that crit is going to fall out of favour for most gods.

I'm a bit careful to say how this one plays out. it depends purely on how much supports will roam with the bigger map. If they do you're not gonna get much AS benefit from it early game. also curious on the range as to a trained eye it might give away ganks. its upgrades are more interesting.

So whenever leather is grabbed I expect it's for hunter's. While leader's feels like having the better stats albeit lower power it's passive is pretty worthless. It's pick focussed or assumes you're winning a teamfight. It will provide no benefit or low benefit depending on the range. The passive would have been fine if you weren't that close to teamfighting stage.

hunter's coil
stats are decent. And late game this passive can turn your team into siege machines. although for you it probably requires to gain benefit as AS is easy to find. movement speed is gonna help a lot as the map is also bigger.

Now
it's your sustain option in such a way that if you go it will be pretty hard for your opponent to outbox you. with being prevalent and not seeing any nerfs it makes it hard for the other starters to compete unless you have the better all in. and this starter has the better upgrades too.

Pretty much the more damage focussed upgrade. Stats show this in the increased AS and of course the passive. it's going to be hard to say if it's better than death embrace. I really think the choice between the too depends on how the game is going and how prevalent anti heal is. Also the extra attack speed will push most adc towards a as attack speed is already so easy to gain.

Honestly, this is going to be either the best pick up or second best. The power it provides is insane. and power is better than AA damage for most hunters as it will also help their abilities. And as it is not affected by the global anti heal aura it will still allow carries to heal with devos a ton from camps. I fear this item combined with devos requires anti heal, which is gonna get nerfed.

Now , I think the addition is either going to have low impact for hunters or is going to take and is going to be combined with to make up for the loss of attack speed. The reason for this is well the high cost and the buff gained again.

All in all, I expect hunter starts to not have changed that much with devos being as good as it already is. However, with the changes to the pen and starting items I am curious how they continue onward. I fear crit is not really in a position to compete with because of the hit on the non T3 item. And if crit is build it's likely going to hit hard, getting close to the S1 2 shotting squishies.

Some builds that I expect but will have to test.
embrace/temper-ninja-devos-qin's-exe-silverbranch swap boots for oddy/toxic blade or instead of exe we see atalanta's or dominance in atalanta's case ending of the build with another 10% pen item.

for a crit one: temper-ninja-devos-failnot-wind demon-poison/shadowsteel/whatever crit your heart desires-dominance.

Awards Showcase

Show more awards

Renowned (105)
Posts: 4410
View My Blog

Nah, if we’re assuming embrace won’t get nerfed (which it will), the meta build for hunters would probablyy look like: Deaths toll (embrace later) > Ninja + Devo’s > Exe > Qin’s > Dominance > boots for Obow

Also Atalanta’s is garbage now. Why would you build that over berserkers.

Rifts of Chaos - Chronos Conquest Guide

Awards Showcase

Show more awards

Renowned (143)
Posts: 7042
View My Blog

And what about hunters using other starts like and especially ? Do you think it's viable or nah?

Awards Showcase

Show more awards

Distinguished (72)
Posts: 2383
View My Blog

As a hunter main, and lover of Izanami, I've been doing some testing. Manakin Scepter, deaths toll, and Leather Cowl are all good. Especially, Death's Embrace. This is because the 120 hp/s at 2.0 attack speed becomes 720 hp/s since you can hit an entire wave.

Posts: 3

wrote:

for some reason I always forget berserker's exists unless I play Ama.

Awards Showcase

Show more awards

Renowned (105)
Posts: 4410
View My Blog

wrote:

And what about hunters using other starts like and especially ? Do you think it's viable or nah?

bluestone might be seen on the likes of ullr, skadi and several other "mid lane" hunters. Manikin I feel like is with the goal of being able to burst jgl bosses. but that is like the arrow really punishable early game cause it lacks any type of sustain.

Awards Showcase

Show more awards

Renowned (105)
Posts: 4410
View My Blog

wrote:

Well, you won't need sustain if the target is dead :v

Awards Showcase

Show more awards

Distinguished (72)
Posts: 2383
View My Blog

+ is ridiculous in regards to 17% lifesteal at level 1. Mana sustain will be an issue with that start. But could be a decent start over .

I am curious on + start. You should be able to produce a decent amount of pressure by being able to clear buff camps quicker to get to lane faster than your opponent. The burn and basic attack increase might be enough to burst down your opponent, but my guess is they will sustain back up easy enough with . Your sustain isn't great at all, but should help ease that pain a little bit. upgrade could be a game changer on Fire Giant/ Fury objectives since they are taking 4x damage. Having an ADC with Mace and a jungle with could burst down FG or Fury super quick. Imagine He Bo Hidden Blade or Nem Ult with Hidden Blade passive (different conversation though)

Overall, will be the safest and more viable starter for ADCs, but I think some of the other starters could see action.

Awards Showcase

Show more awards

Memorable (12)
Posts: 181
View My Blog

Note that unless you've damaged the enemy in the last few seconds, you're subject to the 30% global anti-heal aura, so that 17% lifesteal is going to be 12%. Still a pretty good lifesteal amount though in that combo of Cowl + Spiked.

Manikin, which I'll discuss with the Jungler starters (which is next up on my to-do), does pose some interesting questions. For someone like , whom I proposed as the best candidate for the underwhelming tree due to her ability to back to heal up and get back to lane quickly, would also be a candidate for this start. Self-healers like could also make this work perhaps, but they will struggle early game with mana until Trans is online.

Awards Showcase

Show more awards

Mythical (400)
Posts: 8820
View My Blog

Season 8 Starter Items: Carry Edition - Bran's Thoughts

Awards Showcase

Awards Showcase

Awards Showcase

Awards Showcase

Awards Showcase

Awards Showcase

Awards Showcase

Awards Showcase

Awards Showcase

Quick Reply

SmiteFire & Smite

Smite Gods