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A Question About Starting Items:

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Forum » General Discussion » A Question About Starting Items: 28 posts - page 2 of 3
Permalink | Quote | +Rep by Thiel » January 17, 2014 4:53am | Report
Ghraf wrote:



I will never build DT. DT gets replaced within a level or two every time. The return isn't enough to warrant picking up for 800 gold when you could start Devourer's Gloves instead. And just because you say someone "should" get it, doesn't mean it's the best choice. Some ADCs hardly use basics at all to lane clear.

In what situation would a ADC not use his one to (help) clear lanes. :O

In my experience the damage pot is defnitely worth it - it helps you clear jungles faster than 6% speed does anyway. Same with Death Toll, it gives you that little bit more damage and sustain that can keep you on lane longer, effectively farming your gold back, wheras otherwise you'd have to back earlier. Purely based on how I feel though, I don't have any math to back it up. The Death Toll being swapped out could work - but I can't ever see 6% outvalue-ing a damage potion.
That's just my 2 cents.






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Permalink | Quote | +Rep by Talenhiem » January 17, 2014 6:36am | Report
For me?

Jungle: still go with the Potion of Physical Might. You'll be surprised how much it affects earlygame clear - killing the enemy jungler early on, wasting his pot, REALLY hurts the enemy team, more than you would think. Don't get it, and I guarantee that you'll fall behind.

Support: Now that you can only carry one Sentry Ward, I finally gave in and get Eye of Providence. The early ward on the enemy midcamps and even their speed/blue buff if you're fast enough is indispensable, and it still saves gold compared to Wards. Ofc, I'll still get s sentry every time I back, but they won't be the only wards I use.

Hunter: You don't! Save it for your next item, be it Heartseeker, Qin's Sais, Devourer's Gloves or whatever you want. 400 gold is almost worth a kill; consider it as having an extra kill gold-wise on your first back.

Solo: Ofc, that depends on the laner.
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Permalink | Quote | +Rep by Talenhiem » January 17, 2014 7:11am | Report
Ghraf wrote:



I will never build DT. DT gets replaced within a level or two every time. The return isn't enough to warrant picking up for 800 gold when you could start Devourer's Gloves instead. And just because you say someone "should" get it, doesn't mean it's the best choice. Some ADCs hardly use basics at all to lane clear.


You don't pick up DT for the stats; you pick it up for the sustain. It doesn't sound like much, but think of it like this: (stats are from HiRez' Gods page.) Spirit Arrow, at level 1, costs 60 mana. At level 2, Neith's mana regen (MP5) is 4.75, and mana pool 269. It would take around 64 seconds for that to regen back to full; or, 1 min 4 sec. Now apply Death's Toll. Neith's attack speed at level 2 (saying her only attack-speed-boosting item at the time is DT, and implementing that) is 0.95069 ApS (attacks per second). Saying she only hits half the basic attacks she could have gotten if she attacked nonstop and hit all of them, she would gain an extra 0.475345 MpS (mana per second). Add that to her Mp5, and she regens that 60 mana in around 43 sec. That's a 21 second difference!

and that's only for her mana pool. I bet the +5 health also helps a lot, though not as much as any lifesteal item, even at first rank. But I find myself recalling for mana when I play hunters, not health. So, Death's Toll it is!
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Permalink | Quote | +Rep by BestMinionEver » January 17, 2014 7:19am | Report
Ghraf wrote:

I will never build DT. DT gets replaced within a level or two every time. The return isn't enough to warrant picking up for 800 gold when you could start Devourer's Gloves instead. And just because you say someone "should" get it, doesn't mean it's the best choice. Some ADCs hardly use basics at all to lane clear.
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Permalink | Quote | +Rep by Raventhor » January 17, 2014 8:21am | Report
I personally start Sais and Death's Toll on ADC's (perfect amount of gold spent), but I play very safe ADC's like Apollo and Neith, so I don't take much damage. On mages I usually go Vamp Shroud and situational (they have so much versatility). On Tanks I usually have a very versatile start. If they're an aggro duo lane, I'll pick up Hide for the dual defense. If they're a pokey-type lane, I'll go Watcher's Gift, HoG, and Boots with potions (is that still possible with new boots? Idr.) I haven't had too much experience with the new jungling cost so I won't even try.

Death's Toll is underrated for sustain. I have literally gotten into an engagement where both my enemy and myself are low enough to need to back, but I stay in lane, and the passive has healed me to literally FULL by the time he gets back. That amount of sustain is so underappreciated.

People who don't take it are the kind who take Longsword 3 pot in LoL instead of Doran's Blade 1 pot. Not a horrible idea, but Doran's Blade assures lane dominance.
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Permalink | Quote | +Rep by Talenhiem » January 17, 2014 9:36am | Report
Raventhor wrote:

I personally start Sais and Death's Toll on ADC's (perfect amount of gold spent), but I play very safe ADC's like Apollo and Neith, so I don't take much damage. On mages I usually go Vamp Shroud and situational (they have so much versatility). On Tanks I usually have a very versatile start. If they're an aggro duo lane, I'll pick up Hide for the dual defense. If they're a pokey-type lane, I'll go Watcher's Gift, HoG, and Boots with potions (is that still possible with new boots? Idr.) I haven't had too much experience with the new jungling cost so I won't even try.

Death's Toll is underrated for sustain. I have literally gotten into an engagement where both my enemy and myself are low enough to need to back, but I stay in lane, and the passive has healed me to literally FULL by the time he gets back. That amount of sustain is so underappreciated.

People who don't take it are the kind who take Longsword 3 pot in LoL instead of Doran's Blade 1 pot. Not a horrible idea, but Doran's Blade assures lane dominance.

Did you just completely miss my first theorycrafting earlier in this thread, or are you just not mentioning it? Because it would be like you TO bring it up.
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Permalink | Quote | +Rep by Ghraf » January 17, 2014 12:44pm | Report
Talenhiem wrote:



You don't pick up DT for the stats; you pick it up for the sustain. It doesn't sound like much, but think of it like this: (stats are from HiRez' Gods page.) Spirit Arrow, at level 1, costs 60 mana. At level 2, Neith's mana regen (MP5) is 4.75, and mana pool 269. It would take around 64 seconds for that to regen back to full; or, 1 min 4 sec. Now apply Death's Toll. Neith's attack speed at level 2 (saying her only attack-speed-boosting item at the time is DT, and implementing that) is 0.95069 ApS (attacks per second). Saying she only hits half the basic attacks she could have gotten if she attacked nonstop and hit all of them, she would gain an extra 0.475345 MpS (mana per second). Add that to her Mp5, and she regens that 60 mana in around 43 sec. That's a 21 second difference!

and that's only for her mana pool. I bet the +5 health also helps a lot, though not as much as any lifesteal item, even at first rank. But I find myself recalling for mana when I play hunters, not health. So, Death's Toll it is!


I am aware it's not for the stats, it's the effect. Yes, you do not need complicated math to figure out that anything more than base mana regen > base mana regen. But the thing is, if you are having to basic attack that much (and for 1 minute and 4 seconds straight?), then you're not using any skills at all to lane clear and there is no factored in support, plus you're probably getting pushed into your tower.

If Neith uses Spirit Arrow and Ymir uses Glacial Strike, the lane will be clear (as an example). No basics necessary. A ranked up Spirit Arrow will clear a lane in one use, without a support. The return you end up getting from DT in practice is almost negligible. If you don't believe me, just try it out in a real game as someone that isn't Artemis, you'll be getting little to no return on it.

On top of that, blue buff, I never run out of mana in lane, even playing Xbalanque mainly. If I have to leave lane, it's because I killed someone or I have so much gold that I have to back anyways, or on the other hand, I got killed (which DT wouldn't save me from anyways, but Devourer's Gloves might have).

Raven says it's needed for lane dominance, but if you're only using basic attacks so you can keep your precious mana topped off, then you're probably sitting in your tower and losing your lane.
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Permalink | Quote | +Rep by Subzero008 » January 17, 2014 2:01pm | Report
The thing is, you don't always want to spend mana to push. Sometimes, you just put a few basics in, and let Anhur waste his mana pool by pushing. There's no rush.
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Permalink | Quote | +Rep by BestMinionEver » January 17, 2014 2:05pm | Report
http://smiterepo.com/#/items/overview

Just look up all the hunters and you'll see that DT is in the top 3 most used for every single one (top 2 for all but Artemis).

http://tiermonster.com/god

Exactly the same with tiermonster as well.


And I'm not saying do it because that is what everyone does, but you can bet your entire family on the black market in Bangkok on that the pro players have done the math ;)
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Permalink | Quote | +Rep by Raventhor » January 18, 2014 3:20pm | Report
1) Oh Talenheim, I was just stating my opinion to Ghraf, I didn't even notice we agreed :D

And Ghraf, Ymir may clear a lane, but not all supports can, and I can commonly (on Neith), use a spirit arrow and finish them off with basics. I do not get pushed to my tower, either. Blue buff certainly helps early game, but remember it restores HEALTH, too.

It's a little erroneous to say skills will always clear a lane 100%, and the sustain is what puts you over the top. There's a reason those pros use it. Especially Zapman never leaves without it, being in the top 5 (last I checked) in solo queue and (I think) his 5v5 team in Conquest League.
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