Draft of a Letter to HiRezKelly Regarding ADCs and Snowballing, Up for Editing :: Page 3

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wrote:

- muas(ymir) and i(xbalanque) we were in duo lane against bacchus and amc.
- we had a bad loki jungle and enemy had fenrir.
- we started well with loki gank we got best of amc i guess twice by killing him
- for once ymir and i had to return to base simultaneously bcz of amc damage. Within a minute we lost dominance in the lane and never recovered.
- from that instant amc remained at the highest game level throughout and myself and ymir the lowest.
- soon amc started serious damage on our team with 3-4 basic attack kills combined with damn honey.
- the whole point is that we never did bad in the lane just left it unguarded for may be 30s-60s, that was enough for amc to get far ahead in the game so much that we never caught him after that.
- we were not playing our best by far but the whole game became a let down and turned around within 30s and tat too so early. This is bad for the game i feel.

So did I understand this correctly?
You got ahead (started to snowball), then AMC manged to get back and actually outfarm you for so much that he started snowballing. And that made you feel that snowballing is a problem, why didn't you snowball out of control like the AMC did? :P

To me it just seems like your team got the short end of the stick, because of mishaps. I am not saying that I never lose or anything like that, but when I lose it is my own fault for not being good enough (and I know it is ****ing frustrating). It is not the games fault or because this and that god is OP etc. (but seriously AMC is OP, stupid poke damage and insane sustain).

For instance if you had a good he should have no problem to shut down AMC, is great at shutting down ppl. It is basically the only thing he can do.

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@bestminion.. Its really losing the plot when trying to find fault with what I have written , and concluding that it is ought to be biased towards me. The whole idea of these talks atleast from my side is to be as honest as possible.

We never got a chance to snowball at all, yes we made a few mishaps in the game and that is why we lost. I also was the culprit and would have been a different story if I did things differently but that's how we learn from mistakes.

U missed the whole point by over simplifying the argument as if the person who is writing has made a terrible mistake in analysis and is hiding his faults and blaming others.

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wrote:

The whole tread is about how snowballing is bad, and if it was as bad as it to me sounds like it is put in the letter. One kill = a snowball out of control and there is nothing that can be done about it.

And your scenario is a pretty good example on how this is not the chase IMO.

That was basically all I meant to point out (the part about gods being OP etc just came from all the other posts here and on reddit). And everyone does mistakes, I can easily go 1-10 if I have a bad game. But then the enemy adc is not snowballing because the game mechanic is broken, it is my fault that he gets out of hand.

Here is another example:
https://account.hirezstudios.com/smitegame/match-details.aspx?match=47843425

Our Xbalaque is 0-5 when Neith is 9-1 (snowball) at 22 min and Neith is almost 7k player damage ahead of the Xbalanque. And it ends at 10-5 for Xbalanque and 10-6 for Neith (a puddle of water) and Xbalanque just ahead of Neith in player damage.

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I gotta say that I rather lost interest in support in recent times. Look at my profile, and you'll see just how much mastery I have in supports. Guan was easily my favourite god before his rework, and has my most worshippers. When laning with his magic version before roaming was a big thing, me and my buddy would rack up a bunch of kills out of agressive laning play, and both of us would snowball rather well. It's a shame that this agressive laning style that used to be downright un-counterable when I played it is now a mere shadow when compared to roaming.

TLDR; I used to be amazing at support but roaming killed it.

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@BMO and Aji7: I think you guys have the wrong impression of a support. You like playing them as a secondary jungler, but that isn't what a support should do. That is what a jungler should do.

Also, this is kind of getting off topic here. I've made a thingy about increasing the viability of tanks in other lanes/jungle, if you are really sick of babysitting the ADC.

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wrote:

About the snowballing, I kind of disagree, I think the way snowballing works in Smite is fine. It is not like if you get a kill on someone as Artemis they have no way to get back in the game as lets say Anhur Apollo and whatnot. All you have to do is play smart, if you keep jumping in as Anhur when you know that Artemis got her ult up you are ofc going to die. But if you just keep on farming and wait for the right moment to strike (ult to counter Tusky, then get out and then engage on her before Tusky is back up etc.)

Firstly, you picked the god most likely to support your case: Artemis, the only god who relies on her ultimate for such things, while ignoring the others which can force trades with their basic abilities. Also, if you burn your ultimate specifically to counter another ultimate, your ultimate is going to be wasted. You are going to lose that damage trade even if you immediately disengage, putting you another step behind.

wrote:

I myself do not find it difficult to shut down a adc when I jungle, ofc you need some communication to do it. You are most likely not going to be able to do it if your adc thinks clearing his blue buff or his wave is more important than helping with the gank. It is not just adc's that have a "escapes" in this game. Almost everyone have some and they can be used to chase as well as escaping :P

Didn't I just say that the CC was what made it bad? It was colored in white and everything.

wrote:

Relying on other ppl to do good is a bad thing? well it is a team game after all (I like that it requires a team to work together to be able to do good. Last night me, a friend who have not played Smite for like 6 months, another friend using his mobil as his internet source and 2 other friends whiped the floor with some guys with 2k-4k wins because we played better together. And that is something I myself enjoy with this game.)

Yes, it is a bad thing, because forcing players to rely on their team limits player autonomy, which is always a bad thing. There should be a balance between relying on your team and relying on yourself, but you shouldn't always be forced to do it. There should be some room for "outplaying" the enemy in a duel, but CC limits that.

wrote:

Is there any MOBAs where you do not want to push towers?

Is this a joke?

wrote:

I would not say you need a support to juke, it is all about skill IMO (not saying I'm a jukemaster or anything, but this game is not tab-target so you can dodge stuff) :P

Supports are needed not to juke, but to mix things up. I said that ADCs can give uncounterable damage with their CC, and that's true for the ADC, but the support CAN counter it. Supports drastically affect the dynamics of a lane just by being there.

wrote:

I like the idea of making the lanes a bit longer, but if you are pushing up to the tower I have no problem killing you as it is now. As long as my adc knows his ****. So I would not say that pushing is not dangerous and I think that it should be as beneficial as it is now. If you change that what keeps the fed adc from just last hitting the wave and stay safe at the tower? That would be even harder to shut down.

Last hitting isn't the end-all, be-all solution to pushing. If they last hit only, it limits how far they can push in the event of a kill. In the early game, it is even possible for on ADC to return to lane before the waves reset (also partly due to the insane strength of the minions in the early game). If they push instead, that comes with it's own consequences. More choices = good, yes?

wrote:

I love mid camps, I really do. It gives the support something to do every 2 min and it opens up for interesting engagements. Like if I see my support rotating mid camps I sometimes just let him do it with mid and go to either steal a buff or gank because that is unexpected (as you stated you feel safe those 30 sec). Or we can force a fight if the enemy mid, solo or support is low or just is not there etc. The way it was before was to much, but now it is in a great spot IMO, if the timer got increased it would not make me quit Smite though. But I do not think it is needed, removing them would make jungling really boring I think, what would you be supposed to do the 2-3 min that there is no camps to clear (except baby harpies)?

Oh, gee, I dunno, maybe you would jungle? Maybe counterjungle? Gank? Push? Camp a lane? Get some map objectives? Give a buff or two to your team?

wrote:

The fact that supports roam more makes them able to do more, so I think it is a good thing. Before support was just like IDK... you really did not feel like you acomplished anything (at least that was my experience and it was what put me off playing support). Now it does and you are able to actually help the team.

I think you misunderstand what a support did back then. I never shrinked from playing support, back in the day, because I felt like I was doing things. Getting your ADC kills is certainly doing your team a favor, and it feels good to outplay the enemy support (Because he is your archnemesis).

Also, you seem to fall under the impression that removing Midas Boots would destroy roaming. Well, back then, I roamed. I didn't stay stuck in my lane. I helped other lanes besides Duo. I wasn't some kind of paralyzed weakling stuck in lane, I was a contributor.

If you want to play jungler or roaming solo, then play those roles, and don't shove them into the tank-support and expect him to do it. It's like Aphrodite. We tried to think of ways to make her more viable, but then Raventhor said that the problem wasn't with her, it was with the meta, the need for a tank to play support. We were trying to make her a tank, trying to turn her into something she shouldn't be.

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wrote:

Here is another example:
https://account.hirezstudios.com/smitegame/match-details.aspx?match=47843425

Our Xbalaque is 0-5 when Neith is 9-1 (snowball) at 22 min and Neith is almost 7k player damage ahead of the Xbalanque. And it ends at 10-5 for Xbalanque and 10-6 for Neith (a puddle of water) and Xbalanque just ahead of Neith in player damage.

It's not as simple as you say it is. You can't just look at numbers and determine who did what in a match. That's why I've never been a fan of posting match reports.

For example, considering how Neith falls off quite a bit in the late game, compared to Xbalanque's + + , I'd say that Neith did a hell of an impressive job.

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wrote:

I once had a match in Ranked when our Ymir tried the same thing. He failed miserably. Despite us getting two kills in five minutes, the roaming support kept securing the mid camps, putting both her, their He Bo, and their Mercury ahead, while putting him and our jungle and our mid behind.

It is unfair how putting hard pressure on a lane is no longer viable, even if you score a few kills out of it. (Note: I said viable, not the best possible option)

My hate for those mid camps burns hotter than the sun.

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This whole thread seems pretty surrealistic to me. Of course I happened to be worse than enemy ADC and fed like hell but... well that was my fault. As a jungler I've never experienced the feeling that enemy ADC is too safe. Of course its harder to gank duo lane because it's usually warded better and ADC usually have a tank to help him but still it's possible to get a kill or even double kill. Sorry but I can't understand why snowballing is a problem for You as well as I can't understand how ADC's are too safe now because I don't have that feeling at all.

@Subzero - Who said that support/tank shouldn't roam so much? Who said that he can't be kinda second jungler...? There are some hmmm rules about what a certain class should do...? Things changes due to META changes, sometimes You like that, sometimes You don't. Rotating to mid harpies and sometimes even ganking is the most efficient way to play support/tank now and many people like it. It increases pace of the game and forces regular engagements.

From what You wrote I can assume You just don't like current META (at least things that applies to snowballing and role of support) and it's totally ok, You can have Your opinion but it doesn't mean that things are wrong. Many people (like me and BestMinionEver) likes things as they are now.

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wrote:

I wasn't going to reply to Sub because it wasn't a big deal and I wasn't contributing much to the letter critique anyways, but I'm glad you addressed it =)

gUise iM goen AD Ymir, Wee gOt diS.... hue hue hue hue hue

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Draft of a Letter to HiRezKelly Regarding ADCs and Snowballing, Up for Editing

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