Draft of a Letter to HiRezKelly Regarding ADCs and Snowballing, Up for Editing :: Page 2

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Good point. The problem is, having escapes reduced (reducing dash lengths, etc) would be seriously detrimental to game design, not to mention it feels rather lame to have an escape that doesn't go very far.

The main problem, in my eyes, isn't the lack of chasing abilities on the part of the gankers, but the CC of the hunters. Neith can root a chaser, Apollo can mez them, Cupid doesn't have such CC (which is why I find him ironically to be a less safe laner than Apollo), Anhur has his pillar and his knockback, AMC has his slow, etc etc. This problem would be solved by simply reducing the general CC of the ADCs.

I speak as a jungler as I say this. Whenever I gank, I dislike the escapes but I can understand them, but when roots you for two freaking seconds before walking - not backfliping - back to her tower, I get a bit ticked.

Despite being the stereotypical snowball lane, I find him to be well balanced, because he actually relies on his escape for damage, and the dash can be blocked or stopped in some way. And his only psuedo-escape is a weak 20% slow, which isn't an insurmountable obstacle.

, on the other hand, is one of the most ridiculous snowballers I've seen, mainly because leaving the lane for even five seconds is enough for her to set up her Broken Weaves and establish lane dominance. So if you die, you not only lose farm, but you can't even touch Neith.

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I agree with Raventhor. ADCs are far too safe as it is..
You can push someone to their tower, and easily escape the jungler when he or she shows up to punish you. I feel like they need to make ADCs more reliant on supports by nerfing their escapes, which would give more incentive for supports to stay in lane to guard the ADCs.
It would help put an end to the huge snowballing and pushing problem by making ganks more deadly, whilst also stopping the big roaming support problem by making the ADC hugely vulnerable to ganks without the support.

Although the complete opposite could happen, maybe it will encourage the escapeless ADCs to roam around with their supports in order to evade getting ganked entirely.

And as Sub said, this could damage the game design, and the problem is probably in the CC.

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Latest draft.

Quoted:

I mainly play Artemis, and I have played a lot of hunters. I've snowballed, and I've been on the receiving end of snowballing. I'll try to give some insight into the problem. I apologize if I repeat anything you have heard before. Also, this might be a long read, and this problem can't be summed up easily.

Part of the problem is the lack of counterplay, a direct consequence of the amount of CC in Smite's ADCs in general, as well as a LOT of other factors. CC sets up damage, and a lot of CC sets up a lot of damage.

Let me use an example. I am Artemis, and I gain a kill on the enemy ADC. I kill him, gaining gold and XP. I clear the minion wave, getting even more gold and XP. I also recall, getting an item or two. And the next time I see the enemy ADC, I can afford to play more aggressively, because the enemy knows I have already won one damage trade, and I can win another.

This is fine. This is a natural consequence of dying to the enemy ADC. The below paragraph is not fine.

I can force damage trades. Instead of relying on a support, I can use my Calydonian Boar to attack him. He can fight, which he will lose, or he can flee, giving me free damage, even a free kill. Either way, I get even more lane advantage, putting me even further ahead.

What can he do? Beads and/or Aegis? He loses gold to buy them, and if used, he loses more lane presence due to him burning his primary defense. If he tries to play defensively, he will be pushed back to his tower, losing more gold and experience. He has given me lane dominance, and as long as I don't make any mistakes, I will keep lane dominance, and the gap will continue to widen. This doesn't change no matter what ADC I pick. ALL of them have enough CC to keep doing this.

A factor in this is the general survivability in all ADCs. Five have straight-out escapes, and two have high speed boosts. Compounding the issue is the mass of CC making it difficult for a ganker to chase before they get to their tower. A smart ADC is extrmeely difficult to kill, which is a bit ridiculous considering they are ADCs.

About the tower: Pushing is simply too efficient of an option. There is never an incentive to NOT push, at least regarding the first tower. You potentially gain the opportunity to roam, gain farm for your entire team, and the only risk is from an incoming gank from a jungler, but the jungler is a lot easier to counter than a snowballing ADC**.
What about calling a gank? Asking for help? You can do that, but relying on other players for counterplay is typically a bad idea, because I could counter that by also asking for assistance. It would be a cyclical argument.

In short, there is almost nothing the enemy can do to prevent me from getting more ahead.

Ideally, this shouldn't happen. There should be alternative options. But how can you dodge when you are stunned or rooted or slowed? How can you counter being bodyblocked (Disperse, Impale on the Lane's Sides, Shifting Sands into a triangular box and then Desert Fury)? Being outrunned? Being hit by a global ultimate? (I know, with a support, but the laning phase is too short to make much of a difference. I'll explain later.)

This problem can be approached from multiple angles.

- You can reduce the amount of benefits from a kill, but that affects ALL gods, not just ADCs, and I don't think this is what you want.

- You can reduce or tweak the amount of CC of all ADCs in general, giving more counterplay options and making it more difficult for ADCs to set up their own kills after getting ahead, as well as reducing their survivability. This is obviously time-consuming, strenuous, and headache-inducing, but I believe this is the best option.

- You can increase counterplay potential by having some defensive items that you can build. Just as a mid mage would build Breastplate of Valor with a jungling Fenrir, a few VIABLE defensive items for an ADC would be tremendously useful. (Witch Stone sacrifices too much damage, and Focused Void Blade is too expensive. Magi's Blessing works great, but only late game, in teamfights.)
- You can make pushing less beneficial. Currently, pushing has little downsides compared to the upsides, so you can make the farm loss of being pushed weaker, make pushing more dangerous, perhaps by increasing the length of the lanes, or something like that.
- You can extend the laning phase. This is a bit complex.

Why the Laning Phase is Short: Roaming is too strong, so strong that it has become the meta, partly due to the existance of Midas Boots (Makes it more efficient to roam and give even more farm to your ADC), the Mid Camps and their Importance (So important, you have to secure them ASAP), and due to the ease of roaming (small map). In other words, supports must roam as soon as possible - sometimes even before reaching level 5, or gaining Midas Boots. After getting Midas Boots, supports often spend more time roaming then they do in lane, or even leave the lane to the ADC entirely.

Why This is a Bad Thing: This is bad because A. It forces hunters to be self-sufficient early, which contradicts the very purpose of an ADC and is part of the reason why early game gods like Thanatos are so strong right now, and B. Due to the lack of player variables in the lane, snowballing ADCs can more easily continue to snowball with little interference (it is far more difficult to "outplay" someone in a one-v-one fight), and C. The Lanes become stagnant due to the lack of players. In other words, 'Duo' Lane becomes Solo lane 2.0, where both sides are focused on pushing and very little action occurs.

I don't want to chain the ADC to the support, but I don't think roaming should be so strong that it becomes the best and only option available.

How to Change It?: Well, the main problem is that roaming is too bloody efficient. Making the map bigger would certainly work, although it is a little drastic, removing the mid harpies would reduce part of the pressure forcing supports to roam, and removing OR weakening Midas Boots would certainly help keep supports in lane. I'm out of ideas.

Thank you for taking the time to read this overly long post that would be shorter if written by someone smarter. I hope these suggestions have helped in some way.

Subzero008

**Jungling in Smite is so insanely frantic, due to the ridiculous importance of the mid camps. One thing that annoys me to no end is that when I am playing a hunter, I can look at the map, and when I see that the mid camps have respawned, I can relax, since most junglers would rush to them ASAP, rather thank risking a failed gank and losing them. I hate those mid camps, it's like being chained to a machine that yanks on your collar every two minutes.

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Awesome points mad! Personally to resolve the issue I agree with either reducing mid harpies exp or expanding the map a little. When you think about it the map is very small and even if you see the mid camps come up, yeah you're safe, for like 30 seconds or less, until they run back to your lane. I don't think a huge increase would be needed, but at least some.

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I also agree with adequate increase in the map size. It would nerf snowballing and improve balance overall to some extent.

EDIT: Downside is it would substantially increase the game time

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I'm just gonna through my two cents in here and not say much about the letter itself (as hunters are my least played class)

"Tank" in my comment, = "Support" I don't like calling it support and if you wanna know why I can explain it later.

I Main Tank. tbh, I don't think a whole lot should be done about them roaming because:

Tanks are called "Supports" It makes more sense to me that the tank roams not just because mid furies but it makes more sense to be helping your team indiscriminately, it doesn't matter what role you are, I'm playing this class to help all of you win, which means, helping the jungler and/or any lanes that are having problems, that in essence is what my job is all about, AND I LIKE THAT!

Tanks roaming literally increases my player experience on a good note, and anything that can be done that makes playing tanks more fun imo SHOULD be done, tanks have a bad rep and I don't it.

So I guess in summary for now, If this got sent, even though I like what this letter is trying to fix "ADC snowballing" I would pray that this fails miserably, because the way the meta is now makes being a tank more fun for me.

1.I'm more proactive and reactive to the course of the game.

2. I can have just as much presence as the jungler and impact the game so.

3. It forces me to think more, (which I love)

4. And I can help my team more, the main goal of a Tank.

(Sorry for another one of my long winded posts -_- I gotta work on that)

gUise iM goen AD Ymir, Wee gOt diS.... hue hue hue hue hue

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wrote:

because the way the meta is now makes being a tank more fun for me.

1.I'm more proactive and reactive to the course of the game.

2. I can have just as much presence as the jungler and impact the game so.

3. It forces me to think more, (which I love)

4. And I can help my team more, the main goal of a Tank.

Could not agree with you more on this!

I used to play support all the time before (before the re release of mida's) and I got so ****ing sick of it. You played with your adc and protected him, if some other lane played bad you could only rotate when buffs respawned or you forced the enemy duo out of lane. So Ofc you could not help lanes very much. And then when it came to late game you where supposed to protect your team against a fed to oblivion or WE, then it di not matter if you whiped the floor with the duo lane because just kills you in 5 seconds then the rest of your team dies to the enemy adc and suddenly the 0-6 is 10-6 and the game is over.

I just started playing some support again and my god how great it is compared to how it was. The best thing about it is that if you got a ****ty adc you can just leave him to solo farm and help the rest of the team :p

(I just hate adc who give away free kills)

I'll read the whole thing when I get home and give my thoughts on the rest ;)

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About the snowballing, I kind of disagree, I think the way snowballing works in Smite is fine. It is not like if you get a kill on someone as Artemis they have no way to get back in the game as lets say Anhur Apollo and whatnot. All you have to do is play smart, if you keep jumping in as Anhur when you know that Artemis got her ult up you are ofc going to die. But if you just keep on farming and wait for the right moment to strike (ult to counter Tusky, then get out and then engage on her before Tusky is back up etc.)

I agree with the fact that someone said about Neith's Spirit Arrow being harsh when it comes to ganking her (maybe make it root only in the area of a weave if you hit it? So a normal arrow just deals damage, but if you hit a weave they take damage + root in the area of the weave.).

I myself do not find it difficult to shut down a adc when I jungle, ofc you need some communication to do it. You are most likely not going to be able to do it if your adc thinks clearing his blue buff or his wave is more important than helping with the gank. It is not just adc's that have a "escapes" in this game. Almost everyone have some and they can be used to chase as well as escaping :P

Relying on other ppl to do good is a bad thing? well it is a team game after all (I like that it requires a team to work together to be able to do good. Last night me, a friend who have not played Smite for like 6 months, another friend using his mobil as his internet source and 2 other friends whiped the floor with some guys with 2k-4k wins because we played better together. And that is something I myself enjoy with this game.)

Is there any MOBAs where you do not want to push towers?

I would not say you need a support to juke, it is all about skill IMO (not saying I'm a jukemaster or anything, but this game is not tab-target so you can dodge stuff) :P

I agree with maybe reducing the amount of CC on Neith, but I do not have a huge problem with it.

I like the idea of making the lanes a bit longer, but if you are pushing up to the tower I have no problem killing you as it is now. As long as my adc knows his ****. So I would not say that pushing is not dangerous and I think that it should be as beneficial as it is now. If you change that what keeps the fed adc from just last hitting the wave and stay safe at the tower? That would be even harder to shut down.

I love mid camps, I really do. It gives the support something to do every 2 min and it opens up for interesting engagements. Like if I see my support rotating mid camps I sometimes just let him do it with mid and go to either steal a buff or gank because that is unexpected (as you stated you feel safe those 30 sec). Or we can force a fight if the enemy mid, solo or support is low or just is not there etc. The way it was before was to much, but now it is in a great spot IMO, if the timer got increased it would not make me quit Smite though. But I do not think it is needed, removing them would make jungling really boring I think, what would you be supposed to do the 2-3 min that there is no camps to clear (except baby harpies)?

The fact that supports roam more makes them able to do more, so I think it is a good thing. Before support was just like IDK... you really did not feel like you acomplished anything (at least that was my experience and it was what put me off playing support). Now it does and you are able to actually help the team.

That is my honest opinion at least =)

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For best minion there is not much of a problem with current scenerio..i give you a simple example from a game me amd muas played today..
Why i m refering to this game is bcz it contains both the tank bruiser issue as well as snowballing.

- muas(ymir) and i(xbalanque) we were in duo lane against bacchus and amc.
- we had a bad loki jungle and enemy had fenrir.
- we started well with loki gank we got best of amc i guess twice by killing him
- for once ymir and i had to return to base simultaneously bcz of amc damage. Within a minute we lost dominance in the lane and never recovered.
- from that instant amc remained at the highest game level throughout and myself and ymir the lowest.
- soon amc started serious damage on our team with 3-4 basic attack kills combined with damn honey.
- the whole point is that we never did bad in the lane just left it unguarded for may be 30s-60s, that was enough for amc to get far ahead in the game so much that we never caught him after that.
- we were not playing our best by far but the whole game became a let down and turned around within 30s and tat too so early. This is bad for the game i feel.

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Draft of a Letter to HiRezKelly Regarding ADCs and Snowballing, Up for Editing

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