Draft of a Letter to HiRezKelly Regarding ADCs and Snowballing, Up for Editing :: Page 5

Forum » General Discussion » Draft of a Letter to HiRezKelly Regarding ADCs and Snowballing, Up for Editing 58 posts - page 5 of 6

wrote:

If Sobek needs to hold his lane alone early game then something's veeery wrong...

I tell u in detail.. Sobek is never meant to defend a lane from start, he can't without HOG for sure. My point is, if the ADC in duo lane with sobek dies or returns to base for 30 odd seconds that must not act negative on the XP gained by sobek. He's defending the tower against two opponents and his grit must give him XP as he is in play while the ADC has returned to base.

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I don't understand it really... Sobek and nearly every other tank (Bacchus is an exception) can defend his tower (even early) for time that ADC needs to go back to base and yes he gets exp from it. Tanks falls behind every game, it always was like this and I can't see anything wrong there.

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wrote:

I still don't see the problem with support/tank roaming.

Roaming is TOO good now. There are no other viable options but roaming. If you wanted to play and stay in the lane and rack up kills because that's all Ares can do, you STILL fall behind a roaming support. There is no strategic depth to this. No alternative options. You just have to use the same tactic on every tank-support for every game, every time. This is not a good thing.

With only one tactic available, all god designs have to stem from this tactic. Every god design as a Guardian will be focused around roaming. Because they have to ensure that the god can roam. Because roaming isn't an option, but a necessity. So if you want a god with a different playstyle than the usual, tough luck, because roaming is the ONLY option.

This also applies to the ADCs, and is a factor in this snowball problem. The biggest factor in a duo lane that prevents the ADC from snowballing from a single kill is the support. When you get a kill on someone, it creates a gap in power level between you and them, and support shorten that gap. Even if you are a level ahead of the enemy Apollo, being stunned for 1.25 seconds isa huge deterrence from trying to go ham on the enemy ADC.

But since supports leave the lane and rarely come back, any ADC who falls behind has drastically limited options, none of them good. There are way less options in a duel than a 2v2 fight. Again, less strategic depth, and less options for the player.

Can you seriously not see what is wrong with this?

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Why lack of alternative tactics is wrong...? I don't see it. Can You tell me which lane have hmmm alternative tactics...? Solo laner lane's, mid laner lanes, fight for mid harpies and sometimes ganks sidelanes, jungler jungles, fight for mid harpies and ganks. There always is the most efficient way of playing the game. Besides what about snowballing in solo lane? Or snowballing in jungle?

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@BMO: It was a mistake to reply to your comment like that, now it'll make each post two pages long if we continue like this. (Wow, even this post is at least a page long. ****.)

(Here's the blog link: https://www.smitefire.com/smite/blog/arka222/hi-rez-looking-for)

I'm just going to restate my points here:

Why Supports Roaming Are Bad: See the post reply to Shinji-Something.

I'll add on to that.

The inflexibility of the current meta is a pretty big problem. People are losing interest in Smite because of this*. There are no brilliant new tactics or another strategy you can try, you just play the same repeatedly.

As a rebuttal to your comment about the importance of mobility: Gods get popular or unpopular as strategies and playstyles change. This is a good thing, even though it accounts for certain gods being instabanned or some being trashed. But Ymir is being used again, even without blink. I can't speak for everyone, but I don't pick him to initiate. I pick him for the sheer amount of defensive power he has. I don't expect him to do what he is not capable of doing.

That right there is a sign of the problems with the inflexible meta we have going on right now. We expect gods to perform a certain task that really should be left to another god, because they HAVE to, to be considered "viable." Can you honestly not see something wrong with that?

Ymir/Ares: Uh...I hope you realize that and fill two out of the two available active slots, and therefore getting blink is literally impossible. Also, see above paragraph, you don't pick to do ' job.

As for snowballing, you still did not address what happens when someone besides Artemis snowballs. Try countering a competent Neith.

Dueling in lane limits options. Your list of available tactics becomes depressingly small, and makes you more predictable and easier to counter. Do I really have to give a specific example for this one?*

I think you misinterpreted my statement about last hitting and pushing. I meant to say that in that hypothetical extended lanes idea, an ADC can't just last hit at his tower and then everything's golden. Last hitting can be countered by zoning the enemy, which is especially effective against tower huggers. They are also countered by hard pushing the lane. Or by poking him. Or by forcing minion aggro on him, directly putting minions under the tower. Or a bunch of other options. Isn't this very argument (this paragraph) proof that extending the lanes would introduce more options, strategy-wise?

In other MOBAs, unlike Smite, you don't always push. And I mean always. Every lane in Smite focuses on pushing as hard as they can every single second. I have literally not seen a single other player try to solely last hit, or stall a lane, or basically do anything but push hard. And that is a problem. (Also in other MOBAs, they seem to play perfectly fine without a mid camp. Honestly, if they are that desperate to give junglers more XP, then they should just make more camps.)

And of course Smite is different from DOTA. Everything is different from DOTA. They have stuff like the GG branch and weird stats and no passives and no recalls and whatnot. It is unfair to compare the two games.

To me, the supports roaming, leaving the ADCs to duel, actually makes skill LESS rewarding. Why?

Duels and roaming and such reward mechanical skill. For knowing your timers, being able to hit with all of your basics, etc. Yes, it takes skill to do that, but there's no depth to it. It's certainly efficient, like a gun, but also...boring. It takes no brain power because there's nothing challenging about it. How can you outplay the enemy hunter when both of you hit with 70+% of your basics and abilities but he does more damage?

Teamfights reward cognitive skill. It tests your ability to react to new and sudden developments, like if Sobek randomly decides to charge at you while your support taunts the enemy Anhur. Part of this includes mechanical skill, but this kind of skill (I'm unsure what this is actually called, if it has a name) is what separates the pros from the not pros(?). Any idiot can hit four as Art, press 1, and left click to victory. It takes way more skill to get in a 3v3 skirmish, survive with no ultimate, while still contributing to the fight, without dying.

I hope that made my point clear(er).

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wrote:

Why lack of alternative tactics is wrong...?

Why do you eventually stop playing Tic-Tac-Toe?

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wrote:

Hey, I really like that both shin and bestminion replied to my post..VGG!

I have found a holy grail of balance, may be the purists can comment and improve it further:

Like Einstein gave E=mc^2,

m no Einstein but a physicist least! for sure

- Give bonus experience to all gods for the damage mitigated by them (not damage taken, only mitigated)

scaling can change but more like this:

- 0-5 level, bonus XP(not gold) per 2000 damage mitigated(max.5 stacks)
- 5-10 level, bonus XP(not gold) per 3000 damage mitigated(max.5 stacks)
- 10-15 level bonus XP(not gold) per 4000 damage mitigated(max.5 stacks)
- 15-20 level, bonus XP(not gold) per 5000 damage mitigated(max.5 stacks)
After applying an improved version of this sentiment, there won't be any problem related to snowballing, tank/bruiser lane roles and overall balance of the game and various viabilities of gods like vamana, etc.

The LAW behind whole idea is , I shall be benefited in gaining experience by mitigating damage.

This is too awkward and "chunky." For example, Vamana is in a teamfight, and he suddenly gains bonus health, power, protections, mana, etc from leveling up, as well as higher base damage.

And this won't help snowballing either. Don't forget about base defenses and how ADCs typically take a lot of damage thanks to them being priority targets.

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I won't. It's simple, You may like it, You may not. It doesn't mean it is wrong ;).

I can agree that game is inflexible but from my point of view it's because god skills are the same and we have only one type of support - tanks. From what I heard in other MOBA's there are supports who are not tanks and they have some interesting abilities and that's what I would like to see in Smite. Also there are too many gods which are played veeery very rarely like Hades, Aphrodite and Vulcan.

Blink is viable on tanks. You can buy wards and ask Your ADC for help with warding Your lane. This week's tournament showed that this tactic is totally viable (Geb with blink).

I believe that Smite is still very fresh MOBA game with a little amount of characters to play (there are something like 100 champs in LoL am I right?) and that's the main reason for lack of flexibility. With more gods there will be more ways to build a good team and maybe more viable tactics. But tbh I believe that even with other types of support there will always be only one tactic available for each one of them. It's nearly impossible to balance the game in such way that there's more than one tactic for certain god on certain position.

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@Sub
Thanks for the link.
I thought the snowballing was just some random topic that got beamed into your head by aliens or something...

My idea nerf HS, give Neith root when she hits a weave only or at least make it like 1 sec flat + x pr lvl of spirit arrow when you hit a weave (so rank 5 arrow roots for 1 sec + 1/2 if you hit a root should it be like with damage that you are able to double tap ppl?), give her backflip some cast time, reduce AMC to just get 25% movement speed (and do something about his damage maybe just the attack speed from hives idkr).
Think the rest of the ADCs are fine really. I think it is items that make the carries snowball when they do, and not so much the gods themselves.

Got to get some sleep now, I'll give you more tomorrow ;)

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