Sub's Tier List :: Page 8

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Hey guys, blame Buddha, the EVIL and DASTARDLY ASSIMILATION IDOL, for forcing me, the NOBLE PENTA POSTER, to do this. He has my Gwen Stacy hostage, I have no choice...

wrote:

Ah, thank you for clearing that up for me.

However I disagree to the fact Nemesis cannot burst down a target fast and that she's a bad assassin. Instantly taking away half of your enemy's HP and finalizing with and 1 or two auto attacks is pretty fast to me. Sure, it may not be as much as Loki's burst but Nemesis turns out to be a safer option. This is because to apply your maximum burst as a Loki, you have to burn your not only for the damage but also you are in close range of the target. Leaving your only other escape which is usually used to finish off the kill.

Whereas with Nemesis, you have a shield to save you from some extra damage and your is not part of your burst combo. So that is up to you to save as an escape or chase. So maybe some other assassins have more "burst" but Nemesis offers leeway where in different scenarios with other gods you won't be able to do much.

Lastly, early game Nemesis isn't actually as bad as you think. Usually a gank with an ult will get you a kill. However the downside is you generally won't get a kill without your ult early game unless you have great rotations.

Do you know what burst ISN'T? Bare repeated autoattacks with little ability damage. Do you know what kind of damage Nemesis has at any point in the game? Bare repeated autoattacks with little ability damage. Do you know what sustained damage it? Abilities used for utility and consistent repeated damage through abilities and/or autoattacks.

I don't get how I can make this more clear. Every other assassin has burst damage, used to actually burst someone down and then run away. Nemesis has no burst = ****ty assassin. A shield doesn't stop her from being a ****ty assassin, it just makes her more of a warrior.

And you need to exaggerate less about Nemesis. It's annoying. Her ultimate doesn't lop off half of anyone's health at any point in the game. Best case scenario, you'd take away 25% health due to natural protections, if they were at full health.

I'll repeat this as much as needed: Nemesis is an assassin with no damage or burst, which fundamentally contradicts the purpose of an assassin. No matter how much utility is in her kit, Nemesis is still a bad assassin compared to others. Yes, if you build full crits and such you'll deal significant damage, but so? Thanatos can do the same. So can Thor. So can Fenrir. That doesn't stop Fenrir or Thanatos from being bad. It doesn't matter how many times you talk about her armor shred and her oh-so powerful shield, she still deals weak damage, as a class most dependent on damage.

This reminds me of when I thought Artemis wasn't trash. I kept on making justifications and exaggerating the extent of her abilities, when she sucked, then and now.

wrote:

Green, dueling does not equal assassination. The idea of a dual is to fight an enemy 1v1 over a more prolonged period of time,such as in lane or when fighting over an objective. Loki 1-shots people from stealth and then tries to gtfo. Nem has almost no way to burst done her target that fast, making ehr a bad ASSASSIN. Although she duals well and scales well into the late game, there are assassins who do that better and without not having the early game assassination prowess, such as merc.

THANK YOU. FINALLY, someone who gets it and is willing to say so!

wrote:

You guys need to get off the butt hurt ladder. You've seen Sub post like this for months, or years. That's just how he acts. If he starts getting pissy, ignore him. Don't get pissy back. >.>

It's literally that simple.... Get your Jimmies un-rustled now. Pleaaa?

Strange, isn't it?

wrote:

Snip

"******** idea?" As Chulin said, get off the butthurt ladder. It's insulting to anyone's intelligence to tell them why exactly Hades sucks. I also dislike stating the obvious.

Also, you ignored the post in between the mocking where I did counter his points, rationally and respectfully, as you call it. But since you seem to have left you "Ignore-This-So-I-Can-Stay-Justifiably-Mad" Blinders on, I'm not sure if you'll get the message.

wrote:

lol, read through it^

Hm... Yes I was a bit conceited as to what Nemesis can do. Every god has counters and my statements about Mercury and Serqet were pretty much useless. This still does not change the fact that she is not a bad pick in today's meta. Nemesis does come out late game like many other assassins. Maybe not as strong as a Kali or Mercury but she does shine. Can you tell me what you mean by "dueling" ? I might have been mistaken on exactly what it meant. But I have a clear understanding of what Loki is meant for, considering the amount of experience and time I've spent on him @nex/sub.

You still haven't found reasoning in why pros pick up Nemesis (and Arachbae) as much as they do. They're obviously not garbage if they're commonly being played in pro league. Maybe not as great as a pick like Serqet but it's clear they're not plain garbage.

Back on the main topic, Arachne. Maybe tangled web doesn't do the job for things like or but I find it to be okay for abilities like . I'd find it an advantage to spend a little mana so an enemy burns an ult. As I told you, dashes don't do much for you when you break through tangled web. Even if you dash away, the trail that makes them slow and makes you faster covers a greater distance than before. The only common ability that makes tangled web as a gap closer ineffective are jumps. Jumps to increase the distance between you and your enemy? No problem. But jumps over walls, yes, spiders won't do anything for you there.

And to compare Isis and Agni... Both are actually great picks after Janus and Nu Wa. I'd say Isis was placed at a higher tier before and now it has kind of evened up. Both have been picked up a decent amount of times.

Welp, you did mention tanking towers first.

Swamp explained dueling vs ganking, thank god. Also, I don't watch the competitive scene, and that's different from solo queue meta anyway. And again, you keep saying "pros use it" instead of a real argument, and expecting that to be proof or something.

You said it yourself: Compared to Merc and Serq, they aren't that great. Or good, even. They're only picked when the picker is out of options, as a secondary choice. If Geb and Athena are banned, you might pick Ares, but that doesn't stop Ares from being ****py, does it?

I told you this in the Smite client, so I'm pissed off at being forced to repeat it, but:

Arachne uses tangled web.

The opponent, if he's not stupid and bought wards like a smart person, can:

- CC
- Run from
- Escape from

And there is nothing Arachne can do about it. She can't interrupt them, inflict damage, or CC them in any way without being in melee range first, and ultimately, a slow and a speed buff are both ineffective and slow in accomplishing that compared to an actual dash or REAL gap closer.

Arachne has only one tool to get close in a gank. The defenders have multiple tools, from Scylla's ult/slow/root/escape to Poseidon's knockback/pull/speed buff/stun ult, to Ra's speed buff/slow.

Other assassins can bypass those things, unlike Arachne. Mercury can dash and CC them with one ability, and has a strong ranged ability. Serqet has two powerful CC abilities and multiple gap closers. Thor and Thanatos can just ult onto an unsuspecting target, with the former having a wall and a ranged ability to complement it, and Batz can just fear the enemy with its massive range, on top of a homing teleport nuke.

All these successful assassins have thing in common: Fast range. They all have a very quick way to circumvent the range advantage that ganking targets have, from teleports to CC to ambushes to ranged damage/CC. Arachne has none of these things, except for the slow/speed buff that is slow, delayed, obvious, and predictable, and ultimately insignificant (on someone not in Wood League).

Lastly, I said Agni was good and that only Isis sucked. People seem to agree with me.

wrote:

Same can be said for pretty much every other Assassin, or character at that. Sorry, but that doesn't necessarily make the god/goddess that good compared to the other picks. If you like him and can do well with him, more power to you, but yeah, he's generally not seen as very good.

And I suppose the same can be said for Isis. Sure, there are others that can do things better than her, but I very much enjoy her and think she brings quite a bit to team fights especially. Again, I rarely play CQ, but when I do, I try to grab mid so I can mid with her, and I usually end up doing pretty well with her. Her wave clear definitely is not the best, but it does work very well in getting a few pokes in on an enemy that decides to come in a little too close since it's not just one stream of damage, but a couple waves of damage, allowing her to easily control it toward multiple directions in its use.

So granted, she's not the best, but I still think she's being underrated here.

Realistically, I probably am underestimating her a tad, but I think we can all agree that Smite's environment is NOT forgiving to those who fall even a bit behind the standard. Scylla is just slightly worse than Janus, and she's **** now.

wrote:

You hit the nail on the head. He IS playing a different game to you, because based on your judgement you're not playing smite.

This doesn't concern you.

wrote:

Good thinking, that will help convince him you're right!

Sub, the reason he WANTS you to explain your reasoning is because your way of reasoning is doing this:

"Quote from somebody who doesn't agree with you" AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH

And then you wonder why everyone is always pissy at you?

Alright, I think your statement is based on a mistaken premise.

When I was writing that post, I had honestly given up on convincing him and thought I'd poke fun at him. I wasn't trying to convince him. I was just mocking him because I thought I could get some comedic mileage out of his post and I'm an *******.

After a bit of sleep, I thought I'd try to convince him again. Simple as that.

wrote:

He did explain his reasoning though. That's why he quoted Green, so he could more easily respond to each statement not to "mock him".

The reason he responded to some statements with "AHAHAHAHAHAHAH" is because (No offence Green) Those statements very just completely wrong.

I mean come on, 's kit is based around dueling? That's just completely incorecct! I don't even play and I can still tell just by looking at his skill descriptions that kit is based on on-shooting someone, then running away until another opportunity for you to one-shot somebody arises. You should never give your opponent an opportunity to fight back (which is what a dual is, two people ), just kill them before they can even hit Q to activate Aegis.

Also guys its called "Sub's Tier list". Not "The Ultimate and Official Tier List that should be taken 100% seriously".

You, uh, slapped the buttcheek on the most soft part? I don't want to copy the "hit the nail on the head" metaphor, so anyway, um, yeah.

Green's statements make about as much sense to me as to you.

wrote:

To be honest, if it's one thing I've learned from playing both of these great assassins to diamond, it's that Nemesis can get into a teamfight and last more than Serqet, not to mention that she can carry a team through the late game. Let's face it, Serqet is no pentakill material.

Nemesis is fine

I'm not saying that Nemesis is better than Serqet, but that both are great assassins, each of them have their pros and cons ofc, but in the end both of them can get their job done properly and better than someone like Arachne to point out an example.

Also, I don't think one needs to play other Dota-like games in order to understand Smite properly.

Hastened Fatalis = less damage.

Other assassins don't need Fatalis. Also, Sprint outspeeds you anyway, since Fatalis is giving you essentially a +60% move speed buff, while Sprint 3 gives you 90% move speed, AND it costs less.

You might want to read up on the comments. Specifically, see my point about sustained and burst damage and assassins.

Anyone can build crits and deal decent damage. But Nemesis has no real steroid to speak of, while Mercury and others deal far better damage. Therefore, for assassins, Nemesis is low damage. Same reason why people say Ares is high damage for a tank, despite not dealing a lot of damage in the grand scheme of things.

Also, I'm not saying her shield gets "shut down." I'm saying that 500 health is nothing and gets ripped apart by damage numbers, not CC. Geez.

That's a long posts.

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wrote:

That's your opinion and I respect it and I still think that Nemesis is still a great assassin. I've got my reasons and you've got your reasons, since we can't change eachother's minds I'm glad we agreed to a disagreement.

And I agree that Arachne is still **** as an assassin, her burst might be insane, but she CAN'T get close to her target in any way.

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yes I agree AMC sucks, but I feel like you're not giving him enough attention. I mean his kit is makes him a jack-of-all-trade. He has mana regen on his 1, lingering damage and large projectile AoE on his 2,extremely big AoE slow and lingering damage (possibly) on his 3, and a semi-blind on his ult. Well, at least to me I consider a yellowed vision and 3,000 bees flying around your face a semi-blind. He also has the chance of getting a 15- sec ult, or something like that, which is more than can be said about most gods in general.

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Tierlist in games like smite are fundamentely a bad idea, they can be thrown over by a singular patch, they are largy subjective and can only give a rough sketsh on what is good because half of what makes surten characters great is play styles tgat may even differ from what is supposed to played with them.

In a game that isn't just hard numbers its a bad idea, heck in pokemon it can already be hard to do them and smogon is one of the few groups who were able to kind of keep them standing.

As for how good or bad subs list is, i can't say as i have no knowledge of how good or bad these gods are as i have not played smite in a long time thus do not see my self as creditable to speak about it.

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Deleted all off-topic posts. Please stick to the discussion at hand.

(And I accidentally deleted your post Danny, sorry. I clicked on the delete button for the wrong post :/)
(And yes, his was off-topic, but wasn't going to evoke any more discussion from it, so it was fine)

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DAMN IT BUDDHA! D:

I HATE YOU NOW!

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It seems that it's just a matter of numbers now. All those in favor of Nemesis seem to think that she still good burst, and Sub seems to think otherwise.

Perhaps it's time to whip out the game and do some playtesting?

What will happen is that you'll find that Loki has higher numbers, and then those in favor of Nemesis will say that she makes up for it with her dualing potential, and then Sub will either say that she doesn't have any dualing skills OR he will say that doesn't make up for her numbers.

Still, having numbers to back up your argument always helps.

Personally, I think Nemesis is still a good character, just not in the way other assassins are. I think, as I have always said, that she is a team fight oriented assassin, and her stat stealing passive/ult plus good mobility and large AE slows make her very good at it. Can she burst down targets fast? No, but she can assist a team greatly in a team fight.

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wrote:

Spoiler: Click to view

You can point out what sub does wrong according to you but most members here know sub well enough. Oh and if you think that's already bad we have seen an even worse sub.

wrote:

I know i'm not a fancy "editor", but I have the common sense to see when what should be a sensible discussion turns into an all out mud fight.

you will need to accuse multiple persons for this (as always).

Also daco in a "dueling" fight between Loki and Nemesis. Loki won't dual because he wil spam his abilities to burst somoene down in some seconds. So taking loki for duelling isn't a good example

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Ok, as a support player I have something to say about Ymir and some other stuff.

He's mid tier, but I wouldn't place him on the "garbage" box that easily. If you know how to place walls (right at their ****ing face, or in the gap between a teammate that's getting attacked and the attacker, which is hard to pull off but I mostly always do) he's a monster. Amongst all the supports, he's the one I fear the most playing against. If someone made the mistake of burning his jump or if he doesn't have one (one that can go over a wall, that is) Ymir will kill him.

His wall is AMAZING in the jungle, covering up a path no problem. The minor delay of someone walking into it and having to run around it can get people killed. And I didn't mention a 2.5 stun and slows galore.

This is the only reason why I wouldn't place him higher though: the enemy may have healers. If they do, Ymir won't get blink and that hinders his performance. But anyway, if played how he should be played, he can make up to his slowness. If someone gets stunned, Ymir will stun you harder. If you can't jump the wall, he will catch up.

Of course Athena and Geb are better. Sylvanus and sleepyhead are better too, but I don't like playing Sylvanus so I won't give my 2 cents about him. He's a pretty "Keep in lane" support instead of the "Offensive, push them off" one that I like to play. He'll keep your mana up, heal you, hit minions no problem with it, has a badass ultimate, and arachne's pull, although it's hard as balls to hit (unless you hit your 1 first, quite easy). And an easy as **** stun to hit too. And a nice passive. But the thing I don't like is that he'll kill the ones your adc or someone else is trying to get just because DoT.

About Sleepyhead, he's amazing too. Nothing to say about him. A root, a mez, the to the moon punch and the ability to snipe someone who's running away is quite badass.

And for the warriors, please list their support skills there. Sun Wukong is an amazing support. Has a nice poke, can help your adc clearing in one shot without putting himself in danger, a good chace, the ability to allow towerdives with his ultimate, a slow, a stun, and with the poke and the ammount of damage he can do via tiger, 2, 1 you can be agresive while being quite safe. Just pick your fight, go in, help getting a kill, get out.

And with Wukong is also not that bad to get the kill yourself. Since you'll be building bruiser, if you get the upper hand you'll have their tank bulkyness and be able to destroy their adc in a 1v1 if left alone, instead of being pushed down to the tower and waiting for someone else to save your ***. And if someone ganks, you can even attempt to kill them. You have the damage, the CC, the mobility and the bail out moves in case things don't go as planned.

Of course with the "getting kills" I mean if you chase someone down, you don't trust your adc to get the last hit or he plain sucks. And being able to move while casting is amazing by the way. A lot of times I danced around people hitting them with my skills and basic attacks while dodging every Ullr arrow, Ra's **** and stuff.

I can see Wukong being garbage as a solo laner, but amongst the warriors he's the best support. And I would put him in mid tier support no problem. He's the support to pick if both solo and mid are mages, or the jungler is freya or something. And remember that the support isn't the only way of going into a teamfight. I agree a huge thing like Geb's is better though.

A played properly wukong will destroy the lane. There are better supports, so like I said, mid tier. I'll put him above Hades, Ares, Sobek, Cabrakan and Bacchus every day of the week.

And in no way I'll take the "Why competitive players don't use those then" point. Not using something doesn't make it garbage, there are just more reliable things to pick. More safe ones.