Sub's Tier List

But it must be done from thor's location. Ymir's wall can be placed from china, and that helps a lot.

And Thor is still an assassin kinda (I build him bruiser). If we're comparing I say Fear No Evil is better than Geb's ult and that doesn't make him a better support than him.

Actually, I'd agree with you there. That's why I very specifically (I all capsed it) said that she wasn't good at ASSASSINATING people. In my opinion, being good in a teamfight is BETTER in smite than being able to assassinate. There's a reason that loki is considered bad and Nem isn't. Smite after the first 2 minutes becomes a mess of teamfights and almost nothing else, which is where nem can do well. Again,she doesn't have the burst to be an assassin, but as a tankier team fight melee damage dealer with high attack speed? Sure. Basically, she's a Melee ADC that jungles and has a ton of utility, unlike merc who has more burst and carry potential. Merc's a Position 1 Carry, Nem's a Position 2.

Okay, well I'm just going to talk about Ymir here even if I do disagree with whats said about some of the opinions on the other gods (simply because I am lazy and rather unmotivated to keep up a conversation about any other god). Oh yeah also be prepared for a lot of things in parenthesis because I wish to go ahead and clear up anything that may somehow seem ambiguous or hard to understand. I also do understand that it is your tier list and tier list's can't account for many factors so I have attempted to try and be as reasonable as possible without ****ting daisys.

ESSAY TIME.


It's easy enough to compare numbers. And I've played her enough.

Firstly, let's analyze Nem's abilities.

Her passive is meaningless. At best, meaning a late game champion with potions and red buff, you'll get about 35 power out of it, AFTER three basic attacks. And that is literally the best possible scenario, most of the time you'll be getting 20 power, at most. And the enemy's damage, considering base values in this game, will be reduced by around 6%, WITH max stacks. This passive literally might as well not exist.

Her one is a very long dash, but the crucial part is the lack of anything else attacked, as well as the weak damage. From a tactical standpoint, it ties with other Assassin's mobility skills, since it offers nothing but mobility, and it's only barely better than other assassin's in that regard. And if I had to choose between dashing a bit farther and having Merc's CC attached to it, I'd pick Merc's CC every single time.

Her two does not deal much damage in any point in the game, only being useful as a nuke early-mid game. It's lack of contributions and its high cooldown prevent it from being anything more but a utility skill. Let me put it this way: Nemesis' dash deals more damage. This skill, late game, might as well only be a slow in a fairly narrow AoE. The only advantage this skill offers is that it is basically leveling your CC and damage skill at the same time, but firstly, it sucks for damage, and second, it even sucks at CC! Most other assassins don't need to rank up their CC abilities for them to be useful. Thor doesn't level his wall. Loki doesn't level his slow first anymore. Bastet literally needs no CC because she is, and I repeat, faster than Nemesis. Fenrir's 1 sec stun and ult are all he needs. Same for Ne Zha and Mercury. And Thanatos doesn't get his 1 first when going tryhard anymore. And Serqet doesn't level her madness, either, and its perfectly overpowered with only a single rank. Oh, and her Madness deals more damage, too.

Her three is the most overrated skill in the entire game. Firstly, 100 health is pathetic. Since you HAVE to level your two first, your shield's health level is never going to be that good at any point in the game. It's never massive, it's never strong, and it's never ever going to be anything like Geb's shield. Now, let's go to its dueling potential. Frankly, it sucks for damage and healing, too. The healing scaling isn't bad, but the shield amount is so tiny it only heals for 250 at max rank, at best. Early game, it can only heal for 30 health. You literally regen the amount it gives passive in a few seconds. You will never heal for more than 10% of your health with the shield, and the number only gets worse if you build more health. For damage, the damage is double-mitigated by protections, and again, the shield amount of tiny. No matter what kind of nuke you deflect, you will NEVER deal more than 100 damage with it - this includes Kukulkan ultimates.

Now for her ultimate. It's a single target nuke that deals about 25% of a target's health, at most, while reducing their protections and giving them to Nemesis. It also slows them and speeds you up by a huge amount. This is a utility skill, but the reason why it sucks is because its never a nuke and a protections steal and a slow. It's always one or the other. Early game, the protections it steals, outside of a few outliers, isn't useful at all - we're talking about around 10 magical protections and 8 physical protections. Late game, you still get around 15 magical protections and 30 physical protections on a squishy, which is alright, if it weren't for the fact that The Executioner beats it. On tanks, it takes about 115 ish of each protections. It all depends on the point of the game and itemization and whatnot. The problem is, why would you ult a tank? In a teamfight, not focusing the damage dealers is suicide. You can ult the tanks and bruisers all you like, but not focusing the Rama or He Bo will be suicide.

The damage is mediocre at any point in the game, reaching about 25% health, when other single target nukes can do up to double that damage, and even AoE nukes exceed that level of damage. Remember that as an assassin in the assassin role, your job is to kill the squishy - and your ultimate then becomes a mediocre nuke with only okay CC that's countered by Sprint. So, then, what is this ultimate good for, aside from chasing an easy kill?

Next, let's analyze Nem's attributes.

First and foremost, her mobility. The sad part is, Nemesis isn't even this good, for one main reason: her forced double dash. The fact that you HAVE to dash twice is a problem when you need to close the gap but don't need the massive length, wasting either time, or your so-called massive mobility. Other assassins don't have this problem.

In addition, Nemesis' mobility is overrated. Yes, she has a double dash, but Bakasura has a leap with a speed buff. Bastet has a double leap and a speed buff. Fenrir also has three escapes, but unlike Nemesis, doesn't have to waste a part of it. Batz has a teleport with his lowest CD leap. Serqet and Mercury both outspeed everyone. All of the examples listed will beat Nemesis in a race, because they can literally cover more distance than Nemesis faster, as well as some of them having leaps instead of dashes, and the ones that don't completely dominate Nemesis in terms of mobility.

Her damage, for reasons that should be clear by now, sucks by assassin's standards in any point in the game.

Her dueling is also overrated, just as her shield. Early game, the shield literally may well not exist, because 100 health is meaningless, and the healing it gives is worthless. Late game, it's barely useful, but that's only if they don't immediately negate it. And again, keep in mind that her damage is weak, making her seriously suck at dueling. Even with her ultimate, she still sucks at dueling, simply because your damage is always just that weak. I mean, who can she duel? Bakasura beats her, as a critting autoattacker with Asi. Mercury and Serqet beat her because they're overpowered. Arachne beats her since her damage is very strong. Bastet beats her because her dueling potential is ridiculous when you count her cats all attacking one target. Kali just murders her. Loki doesn't care about any of Nem's CC and can engage on his own terms, on top of dealing more damage in general. Ne Zha can just ult, completely negating her ultimate. Even THANATOS beats her in a duel due to his better healing, having more hard CC, and above all, he doesn't have to 100-0 her, only 100-50 her to win a fight. About the only people she can beat are Hun Batz due to his predictable damage and lack of expendable hard CC, and probably not Thor, since Thor deals way, way, way more damage than Nemesis - seriously, his 1 has like 600 base damage when maxed. Seriously, when one considers her very low damage, who can she beat, even with her shield and ultimate?

Her build is just so messed up. You HAVE to build bruiser-y due to you needing it - otherwise, you don't survive long enough to deal damage. And even when built full damage, your damage is subpar, and this only exacerbates the problem. Damage build: You're too squishy and too in-your-face to deal much damage outside of dueling. Bruiser build: You don't deal much damage at all.

Her teamfight is pretty funny. Everyone says that Nemesis is a utility fighter, rather than direct damage, and that her teamfight ability is actually pretty good. I say everyone's wrong.

Why? What does Nemesis bring to a fight? Protections shred and slows. Now, what do other assassins bring to a fight? The ability to remove the enemy's carry from the game. Massive AoE CC like Batz. Massive AoE damage and CC like Thor. Massive AoE silence, stun, and Execute like Thanatos. Etc. Oh, and DAMAGE.

(Seriously, how is an AoE slow good compared to AoE fears, stuns, disorientations, walls, etc?)

Nemesis' damage late game is all melee basic attacks. Unfortunately, you have no way of getting into close range unscathed, your damage, again, isn't even that great, and lastly, you don't even have any CC to deflect any damage coming your way.

In the end, no matter how much protections she removes, Nemesis still has worse CC than other assassins', and her ahredding isn't as useful as removing an enemy carry AND having some sort of utility and AoE damage, as well as the ability to apply that damage. THAT is why Nemesis sucks in teamfights; because killing the enemy carry and being able to deal damage properly beats anything she's able to bring to the table.

Early-mid game, your shield can be useful. However, your damage is simply so weak, and you are so ultimate-dependent, that not only can you not gank often, but your ganks are easily countered by using an escape like every single meta god has, or by Sprint.

Late game, your damage is literally only in melee range, unlike every other assassin except Fenrir, which means you have to get way closer than other assassins to do your thing. To make things worse, Nemesis doesn't even have any hard CC to help deflect damage coming her way, unlike other assassins. To make things even worse, if Nemesis' niche is supposedly dueling, dueling does not happen often in the late game.

Ultimately, Nemesis is an assassin who can't assassinate. The only thing she has is anti-tank stuff, and even then, she's weak at her own niche. The numbers support me in this case, because she can't even duel. Her dueling passive is weak, her shield health, healing, and damage are weak, and even her own damage is weak, meaning she can't even duel. She's practically forced to build Magi's almost all the time, making her damage problem even worse, on top of having almost nothing but single-target effects, meaning she falls off hard in a teamfight.

Overall, Nemesis is weak. She sucks at her own role. Her role is indeed unique, but the problem is that the role is unneeded in the first place. She sucks.

Other supports like Geb get Blink, too. The difference is that Geb and Sylvanus have better CC. A 2.25 second stun is amazing, but stunning the ENTIRE enemy team for 1.5 seconds is better.

I think that's the ultimate deal breaker. Teamfights in Smite are little more than which team can burst harder. Ymir can deal damage and has great CC, but nothing makes up for how Geb and such can literally stun the entire enemy team. And while Ymir has lots of CC, most of it is fairly inconsequential, except for the wall and stun, of course. His slows can be strong, but when everyone and their mother has CC immunity and an escape, it kind of sucks. The thing is, Ymir can lock down people for a long time, but he doesn't HAVE to. He's so overspecialized in CC that more versatile tanks have the advantage, like Geb's cleanse or Sylvanus' pull.

I think you're focusing too much on role. Just because she's considered an assassin, that doesn't mean she JUST has to be a single target burster.

So let me ask you this: Do you think: If they turned her stats into those of a warrior and didn't touch the kit, would she be a good warrior?

Other ADCs have his ability burst but with better mobility or waveclear. Also, it's health regen, not mana, and his ultimate doesn't blind people. Seriously.

Yeah, his ult burst thing is very impressive, but its unreliable, especially compared to Rama's global execute removing the need to 100-0 them when he can just 100-30 them and walk away.


You might want to read my essay.


A lot of MOBAs have tier lists, and I think its for the better.


Wukong is weird. I've played him support a bit. It can work. But as you said, his lack of "stun the entire enemy team" really, really sucks. And as I mentioned before, being "mid tier" doesn't mean much in this game, which is why I have only two main tiers in my list. He's still strictly worse than many other supports, especially with his lack of AoE CC, which makes him solidly worse, which is why he's still in garbage. I still think Chaac would be a better support.

As for Ymir, there is one problem with him needing Blink: Gold.

The thing is, Ymir is a kill type lane. He can't passively sit back and peel for the entire laning phase like Geb, or heal through it like Sylvanus, or move literally anywhere else like Athena, or poke like ***bha, at least without taking damage himself, which is pretty bad. Without any ability to do anything at range, his lane presence becomes quite weak. Yes, he can peel, but he can't exactly poke, or do anything about being poked.

Also, there's a problem with the wall. Let's say, in lane, you get a freeze on someone. They hop away, and you do the wall to block them off. Now what? You just walk up to them and press 2 and hope it hits? They burned their escape, but you don't have much punishment.

Another problem is with how easily he can be kited. By, say, Apollo, who can just mez and walk away. Or Ullr with his multiple escapes, who can also stun you at your approach, without Blink. Rama is actually pretty weak against Geb, but that's still 2/3 of the mainstream ADCs.

So you can either not get blink, and lose lane presence, or you can sink gold into blink early, falling behind.

I sort of agree that Ymir's stronger than the other garbage supports, but like I said, being behind, even by a little bit, does not bode well in this game. No one will pick Ymir unless there's a whole lot of bans, and from a tactical standpoint, other than his wall, he doesn't really bring anything unique, and most people would pick a cleanse/**** ton of circular CC/mobility/heals/pulls/teleport over a wall.

By any other standard, yes. But this is Smite, so no.

Like, let's look at other warriors. They're initiators, stunners, CC-er's. Chaac has his massive silence, Herc has his pull and stun and knockback, etc. Osiris can give himself up to ****ing 40+ percent physical damage reduction and has an AoE stun, albeit delayed. Ironically, Herc is probably a better assassin than Nemesis, since he can pull targets from range while stunlocking and maybe killing them with his ult.

Anyway, she's lacking compared to other warriors, too, sadly. They have lots of hard CC, insane sustain and innate tankiness, more than Nemesis could dream of, and more damage and ability burst as well. Her niche, as I mentioned IS unique. The problem is that it has no point.

I'll make a League comparison since you like those so much. Trundle has Nemesis' ult. Shreds protections, but doesn't slow, but actually damages some of their maximum health and returns it as healing. He's classified as a bruiser, and his niche is tank shredding. He's pretty damn similar to Nemesis. They both have AoE slows. They both have big speed buffs. They both focus on single target damage. They even both steal power, and even have similar weaknesses.

But the reason why Trundle works and Nemesis doesn't is that the meta is less strict (letting more varied team comps, as well as the protections steal being more useful since more classes counterbuild), AND Trundle is simply more effective in virtually everything.

He can give himself up to 40 physical power while removing 20, and this is huge. This actually lets him out damage DPS champions late game. You'll see in the rest of his kit.

His 2 creates a giant AoE zoning tool where he gains massive move speed (40% at max) and attack speed (80% at max), as well as increased healing. Basically a Circle of Protection, but slightly bigger.

His 3 creates an Anhur pillar that only slows.

His ultimate takes 40% of a target's protections flat, but the percent health damage and healing scales with level. It also has a 60 second cooldown.

Trundle is more effective due to his ability to actually reduce power significantly, giving him strong utility, increase his own power and attack speed to the point where he can build protections and deal good damage regardless, has AoE control through his pillar and Frozen Domain, and most of all, his really damn scary ultimate. It makes him insane for dueling since it heals him, is based off of max health instead of current health so its more versatile, has a lower cooldown so it can be used more often, and also takes protections consistently. The flat power steal versus percentage power also makes a big difference.

Nemesis has the problem of shredding armor and yet dealing too weak damage to capitalize on it properly, unlike Trundle. She also has to build protections, and has very little control, unlike Trundle. Her healing and power removal, which makes Trundle such a strong duelist, is simply too ineffective to be useful.

In terms of kit differences, Trundle can give himself a speed and power buff without his ultimate, making him way less dependent on it, and ironically, giving him better and more useful mobility than Nemesis, whose dash and ultimate are too restricted to be useful. It's these seemingly-small differences that make Nemesis ineffective.

Nemesis, honestly, should have been a warrior, at least in her current iteration. (not so much for pre-rework Nemesis) I have no idea why she was changed to an assassin AGAIN. That said, she still has some serious problems, so that is why I say no, even if she was a warrior, she would still suck.

As for suggestions? I'd like to see her shield break at but block the next CC effect to hit her, and maybe have it back to the old invincibility shield, to counter burst damage. I'd like to see her dash use a charge system with a way lower cooldown. I'd also like her Slice and Dice to be changed to a low cooldown utility skill, and for her passive to be reworked entirely. Her ultimate just might be okay, then. This way, she still has the basic attack based weakness, but at least she can do her damn job properly.

Passive ideas: something dueling based. Maybe not stealing power, but something more unique. Like, say she's attacking someone who has more health than her, aka a duel. Free Sais effect? Free healing? Free attack speed? Power? Dunno.

Her role in a teamfight would be literally charging in, blocking CC and damage and juking with her multiple dashes, then zeroing in on a target and killing it. She's be an unpeelable assassin, with the main weakness of not having an assassin's damage and being restricted to mainly basic attacks. She'd basically be release day Nemesis but with less damage and without a ******** 3 second 50% AoE slow with a nuke and a 7 second cooldown. I think that's balanced.

Yeah, sorry about the regen confusion. Also, what I meant by a semi-blind was that it's not officially a blind, but can throw off unexperienced players hit with this ability for the first or second time. I think a good example of this in another video game is the Blooper from Mario Kart. Players that are completely new to the Blooper might be like: "WTF 2 OP I CAN'T SEE". Yet, if you notice an experienced player getting hit with a Blooper, you can tell that they can still drive around the course as if it was nothing. Basically the same idea with AMC's ult, or at least imo.

How do you even find the words to write those essays sub?
Like, the longest essay I've written so far is about half of the one 2 posts above me >.<