Let's Make Patch Notes - Mages :: Page 10

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Aphro doesn't need a serious rework just a little buff to make her more viable and effective as a support.

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The question is, how do you make support mages viable without displacing one of the existing roles?

Understand that unlike LoL, the reason why the tank doesn't solo in SMITE is because whoever has a significant pushing advantage will win solo lane outright. If you can't at least hold your ground and keep the minions off your tower, you will inevitably fall behind your opponent.

There's also the question of how do you define an assassin mage? Is it someone who can deliver insane single target DPS and kill someone dead? A lot of people like to argue is an assassin mage because he does just that... except his kit has no mobility and forces him to hold still for kills, which is completely counter-intuitive to assassin playstyle.

I can go on with this, but maybe it's best I just address the heart of the problem. You can have as many roles as you want, but the problem is there will always be just five player slots on a team, and a meta will dictate that certain role compositions will rise above the rest. I can only assume this mantra is why HiRez chose to stick to the five main roles after leaving open beta as opposed to branching out the role variety.

Waiting on a good new MOBA, please.

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Actually, Ymir jungle is a thing. I've enough experience with Tank Ymir jungle to know that it works (yes, in ranked). The main problem seems to be in solo queue, no one is willing to support mage when you are tank jungling, and vice versa. You can't control your own team comp, and so it is difficult to experiment or validate theories.

From my experience with Tank Ymir jungle, it is his passive that makes things work. Doubled basic attack damage is really strong, especially in the early game where the base damage is strongest. Then around mid game, his basics begin to fall off, but then the ridiculous base damage on his picks up the slack. Late Game, he literally can't jungle, but his job is done.

Guan Yu also works as a solo lane tank. You can literally buy only as your only damage item, and as long as you get mystical mark, your waveclear is fine. This also works well for jungling.

So, why not a new starting item? One meant for tanks, designed to preserve their role as a non-damage dealer, while allowing them to clear minions, which seems to be the problem.

I see two ways we can go about this.

1. Give some kind of damage boost against minions. Like Ymir jungle, this involves, say, doubling basic attack BASE damage. Or maybe +30 flat damage on basics against minions only. Something like that.

2: Execute mechanic against minions. If your abilities can only take minions down to 30% health, then it would be simple to just put in an execution mechanic.

How's that?

Renowned (112)
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I'm think I agree with you, Raventhor.

The scope of our suggested changes were to make her more useful in a teamfight. To basically give her the weapons of a tank. But after looking at it from your perspective, I think I understand.

Aphro's job is a support mage. Then, in a teamfight, she is a mage with some healing and utility, but still a mage. And we shouldn't expect her to be a tank. I think that is what you are saying.

I guess the problem with Aphro belongs in a separate post. Can we move on?

Renowned (112)
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What about changing her to the first magical bruiser in the game, by increasing her protections but lowering her damage output? That would be my second choice, first being just to wait for the meta to change.

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Adding an execute mechanic to tank skills sounds like a terrible idea. You're suggesting that tanks be able to insta-clear creep waves at some point? I remember the closed beta days when could do just that, simply because minions didn't used to scale in health/protections as the game progressed... it was back in the dark days of the Tank Meta. Hell, we argued in favor of nerfing because it was making bruisers and tanks too effective in the lanes, and now suddenly you want to give that back?

No, I think what really needs to be done is to reduce the penalty for getting pushed under your tower. There is simply too much pressure for the player to keep the minions away from their tower at all costs, lest they fall behind in gold and experience. As it currently stands, the benefits for pushing an enemy under their tower outweight the risks. Sure, you might be putting yourself in danger of an enemy jungler gank, but smart warding and positioning can keep you safe from those threats most of the time... not to mention a jungler can't be everywhere at once (unless they're ).

Mages are designed to push for the most part. The problem is push is too valuable in laning at the moment, so the moment you pit a mage against a tank in solo lane, the tank is already seriously disadvantaged. Not to mention even if the tank were to somehow hold that lane, a farmed mage is far more useful than a farmed tank.

Take a look at LoL: pushing is generally not something you want to do unless you know you can get away with it because you can't really do significant damage to a tower early on and you'd be exposed to a jungler gank; farming minions is more preferable until you manage to score a few kills, then make your push. This is the reason why you have viable tank solos in the top lane (on top of the fact that the meta strictly insists the mages go mid only unless they can support).

But I think we're getting carried away here: this is supposed to be a discussion about mages, not tanks.

wrote:

is already a magical bruiser, if you know how to play and build him correctly he won't go down easy.

Waiting on a good new MOBA, please.

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wrote:

Well, she already is a magical bruiser, pretty much (B.Plate of Valor), and you can't really change her base values to make her become less of a mage, since magical power is item only.

Renowned (112)
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wrote:

Please don't shove words in my mouth. I never said they should be able to insta-clear waves. I'm just saying they should have some kind of boost to their clear speed. I don't think anyone besides a full mage can clear a wave in only a few seconds, most solo lane bruisers needs to finish them off with a few basic attacks.

is unrelated to the subject of tanks and their pushing power. It is a general issue and a crutch tool for ALL gods, not just tanks, and it shouldn't be treated as a problem exclusively for tanks.

wrote:

No, I think what really needs to be done is to reduce the penalty for getting pushed under your tower. There is simply too much pressure for the player to keep the minions away from their tower at all costs, lest they fall behind in gold and experience. As it currently stands, the benefits for pushing an enemy under their tower outweight the risks. Sure, you might be putting yourself in danger of an enemy jungler gank, but smart warding and positioning can keep you safe from those threats most of the time... not to mention a jungler can't be everywhere at once (unless they're ).

I don't think the tower penalty is the problem. The problem isn't the farm (or lack thereof), it's the lack of consequences for pushing. With the existence of sprint, the common-ness of , and the short distance between towers in the duo lane, pushing is inconsequential due to the ease of disengaging, short of a bucketload of CC or a counter-sprint. This is also part of the reason why a lot of CC is needed in god design, which is unbelievably frustrating.

If we do reduce the penalty for being under tower, people would still push hard anyway. It's still a (smaller) advantage with minimal risk involved. A smaller carrot is still a carrot, and there is no stick.

I think increasing the size of the duo lanes, from box-shaped to curved, is a good idea. It shouldn't increase the map size by a significant amount, the locations of the buffs and whatnot would remain the same; the only real difference would be the ease of ganking the side lanes.

wrote:

Mages are designed to push for the most part. The problem is push is too valuable in laning at the moment, so the moment you pit a mage against a tank in solo lane, the tank is already seriously disadvantaged. Not to mention even if the tank were to somehow hold that lane, a farmed mage is far more useful than a farmed tank.

Take a look at LoL: pushing is generally not something you want to do unless you know you can get away with it because you can't really do significant damage to a tower early on and you'd be exposed to a jungler gank; farming minions is more preferable until you manage to score a few kills, then make your push. This is the reason why you have viable tank solos in the top lane (on top of the fact that the meta strictly insists the mages go mid only unless they can support).

But I think we're getting carried away here: this is supposed to be a discussion about mages, not tanks.

...and? How is this related?

I mean, yeah, duh, Mages beat Tanks in the pushing department. No contest. But how does this matter on the subject of tanks and their lack of pushing ability, and how it will affect the Smite metagame? And I understand League well enough.

Edit: You're right, we should move this to another thread.

Renowned (112)
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I just want to clear up, I know jungle Ymir is a thing, hence why I listed him and Athena, who have the best base damage in the game. Omega (the jungler on the team of Allied, whatever that was), ran jungle Ymir a LOT.

I have nothing else to say really on the tank topic.

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Eminent (158)
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Why don't we move on to another mage, one who has been an elephant in the room: .

This bastard is notorious for ridiculous area damage with his ultimate, ridiculous dueling potential, and stuns all over the place. Max cooldown Zeus is essentially immune to basic attacks, always has his stun on, is stupidly fast, and hits like a truck.

I propose giving some counterplay to this sum***** by removing the "Aegis Shield Reflect" ******** he has. Now he has to work for his damn charges. Or at the very least, work a little bit more.

Any other proposals?

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